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Bureau of Meteorology's new boss asked to examine $96M bill for website redesign

abc.net.au

61–70 of 86 posts

Re: Bureau of Meteorology's new boss asked to examine $96M bill for website redesign

#61

It's extraordinary how far departments (even large companies) will go to avoid in-sourcing work. $AU96M is a small team of developers hired, paid and pensioned for decades . Anyone rubber-stamping that sort of invoice deserves jail time.

Another POV is that if you had to cost out a finished product ahead of time, that’s what it costs.

Startups and small teams fail before they’ve spent $100m on product development. The scenario you describe never happens.

You could argue instead for incremental development, but if they’ve already decided they need this whole stack of products (it’s $100m for a backend, supercomputer code, etc) why delay and make it more expensive?

I don’t know a lot about weather websites. For video game engines, I know Unity has put more than $3b of product development into the engine. That’s a lot of money. And they’re still not “finished.”

Anyway, the worst part of the discourse is the jail time thing. Pray tell, who the hell is going to feel passionate about programming for the government if their peers are threatening jail time over budgets? One of the reasons we get to enjoy high standards of living in the west is that we pay for consultants, like expensive secondary medical staff, programmers, etc, instead of only tangible things. In your world, the only big government expenditures that are permissible are roads and shit. It is the very same energy as tariffs, this belief that the only valid labor is manufacturing. It’s dumb.

Re: Bureau of Meteorology's new boss asked to examine $96M bill for website redesign

#62

It's extraordinary how far departments (even large companies) will go to avoid in-sourcing work. $AU96M is a small team of developers hired, paid and pensioned for decades . Anyone rubber-stamping that sort of invoice deserves jail time.

This is a huge issue in my experience. I've done some work as a government contractor and often the govt offices have been so heavily outsourced there's nobody left with any technical knowledge at all to oversee the projects. Like the most technical person literally doesn't know what a git repo is.

Even if you hire good contractors who work in good faith, the inability to have remotely technical discussions leads to all kinds of miscommunication and mismatched expectations.

Building and maintaining more in-house developers would be vastly more efficient for the govt, but so many people have a religious level hatred of public employees and glowing respect for private ones. So we not only end up in the current situation, it's actively being made worse in the US by the current administration.

Re: Bureau of Meteorology's new boss asked to examine $96M bill for website redesign

#63
post #53

Hopefully they'll go through all billed invoices with a microscope. My guess is that this will reveal outright fraud from the consulting firm(s), in the form of overbilling in hours. Even if they bill $500/hr, and they billed 24 hours a day, that would come out to $4.38m / year for each consultant. That's a 11 member team billing 24 hours a day, all year round, for two years straight. And if they billed more realisti…

“It said the cost breakdown included $4.1 million for the redesign, $79.8 million for the website build, and the site's launch and security testing cost $12.6 million“ So 95% of that wasn’t from the cost of the website redesign. “$79.8 million for the website build” included the actual weather modeling and suddenly that number looks way more reasonable. Classic case of project scope creep stretching what redesign mea…

Did they get a new satellite too? /s

Re: Bureau of Meteorology's new boss asked to examine $96M bill for website redesign

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok great, in-source the project but we’ve been promised a yearly headcount increase of exactly 0. Any hires above that require the minister to sign off. In your team you have, 3 data scientists that have never worked on a software project, an intern who likes computer games and a PM that used to work in the tax department. This is a 12 month project, everyone needs to also do their own job and if it’s late, they’re c…

> promised a yearly headcount increase of exactly 0 That's the silly thing that seems to cause so much trouble. The conversation should be about budget rather than headcount, and the department heads given flexibility on how to manage their budget. There probably is some reasonable amount of budget to bring consultants in for advice on industry practices, but as mentioned elsewhere in the thread, projects like these…

Opex vs capex budgets is the issue then. The finance people have too much power.

For the in-house experience, keeping a core focus is important for any business. “Are we a website company now?” isn’t something I want my government weather department asking. They’re always going to be worse than industry and one website company per gov department isn’t a slope I’d like to slip down.

Also, sometimes actually defining at the boundaries the problem helps to solve it ie when the internal team creates a spec doc for the ext dev team.

IMHO, the reason government projects end up like this is derisking, pearl clutching, being difficult pricks to deal with and then being uncompromising on process change.

All of the worst aspects you could hope to find in the enterprise at the same time, and then they have a monopoly on being the government.

Re: Bureau of Meteorology's new boss asked to examine $96M bill for website redesign

#65
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“It said the cost breakdown included $4.1 million for the redesign, $79.8 million for the website build, and the site's launch and security testing cost $12.6 million“ So 95% of that wasn’t from the cost of the website redesign. “$79.8 million for the website build” included the actual weather modeling and suddenly that number looks way more reasonable. Classic case of project scope creep stretching what redesign mea…

Did they get a new satellite too? /s

[deleted]

Re: Bureau of Meteorology's new boss asked to examine $96M bill for website redesign

#66
post #22

Honestly, with an LLM, I can do it by myself for $96,000 - maybe less. I had a brief look at the website. Downvote me if you want. But I just built a small business website for a relative in about 5 minutes using Vercel's v0. All I did was upload the logo design, gave it some details about the business and it spit out a fantastic professional looking website in about 1 minute. Made some changes to it and pressed a bu…

Fixed price? Shake on it LOL - That "weather website" has to serve all of Australia. - It's got to be usable on big screen desktops, tablets, smartphones. - It has to have an uptime of what I estimate to be 99.99%. As the article says, farmers will pitchfork you if you can't tell them when rain will hit their fields. - It has to be slinging dynamic image data to (about) every visitor. - The data comes from somewhere.…

This seems like a classic case of the whole "once we have all the data building this is easy". Yeah that's the easy part, that's why building a weather dashboard is one of the classic beginner projects.

The issue is aggregating the data. Same for supermarket systems, transport and logistics, and other systems tied to external data that requires physical interaction.

Re: Bureau of Meteorology's new boss asked to examine $96M bill for website redesign

#67

Hopefully they'll go through all billed invoices with a microscope. My guess is that this will reveal outright fraud from the consulting firm(s), in the form of overbilling in hours. Even if they bill $500/hr, and they billed 24 hours a day, that would come out to $4.38m / year for each consultant. That's a 11 member team billing 24 hours a day, all year round, for two years straight. And if they billed more realisti…

Why people are so obsessed with yr.no? I know it’s popular in NZ too.

Re: Bureau of Meteorology's new boss asked to examine $96M bill for website redesign

#68

Hopefully they'll go through all billed invoices with a microscope. My guess is that this will reveal outright fraud from the consulting firm(s), in the form of overbilling in hours. Even if they bill $500/hr, and they billed 24 hours a day, that would come out to $4.38m / year for each consultant. That's a 11 member team billing 24 hours a day, all year round, for two years straight. And if they billed more realisti…

AT $250 an hour and 8 hours per day / 2000 hours per year, that's almost ~50 people years, which likely means a team of 10-12 devs working on it over 18 months with another 1-3 design and product and project people in the way making things look good until the bill arrived. Accenture is good at that. [0] 0 - https://australiatimes.com/australia-s-bureau-of-meteorology...

My experience while working in consulting - 1-2 dev, 2 testers, 2 analysts, subject matter expert, scrumbag, product owner, platform owner, designer but she’s always very busy, and some other people that rhyme with management. So about 10 people managing 1 persons work which in principle I’m fine with, except you need to sit just insane amount of meetings and meeting with more than 2 people is horribly exhausting for me.

Re: Bureau of Meteorology's new boss asked to examine $96M bill for website redesign

#69
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, usually you don't have 11 developers coding 24/7. What you usually have is project managers, account managers etc and then a few people who code every now and then. Then you have licenses and support costs. You can't just code the website, zip the code and mail it to the client. They have many stakeholders like this person needs to be able to show this that persin needs to be able to access this etc because they…

> You can't just code the website, zip the code and mail it to the client. The suggestion that the only alternative to paying $96 million AUD ($62 million USD) for a website is getting one that was "coded, zipped, and mailed" is absurd. > That's why you have thousands of employees in tech companies with seemingly a simple product that you can fully code in a week(at least the user facing part of it). I've worked at S…

> The suggestion that the only alternative to paying $96 million AUD ($62 million USD) for a website is getting one that was "coded, zipped, and mailed" is absurd.

You can zip and mail every software, given that the mail server(s) accepts the mail, including software that they spent 96$ million on.

Re: Bureau of Meteorology's new boss asked to examine $96M bill for website redesign

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> promised a yearly headcount increase of exactly 0 That's the silly thing that seems to cause so much trouble. The conversation should be about budget rather than headcount, and the department heads given flexibility on how to manage their budget. There probably is some reasonable amount of budget to bring consultants in for advice on industry practices, but as mentioned elsewhere in the thread, projects like these…

Opex vs capex budgets is the issue then. The finance people have too much power. For the in-house experience, keeping a core focus is important for any business. “Are we a website company now?” isn’t something I want my government weather department asking. They’re always going to be worse than industry and one website company per gov department isn’t a slope I’d like to slip down. Also, sometimes actually defining a…

> one website company per gov department isn’t a slope I’d like to slip down.

But one software department per government is very reasonable and likely needed anyways.

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