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Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

theguardian.com

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Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#61

Post by RaiausderDose »

constantcrying wrote: post #60
RaiausderDose wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please tell me which legal case you mean? Sounds very much like a bubble-YouTube story about ‘Muslims can rape everybody in Germany without getting punishment.’ Acquittals happen when there are contradictions in the evidence or victims testimonies, but when it's clear that a rape occurred and the perpetrator only gets a stern talking to - don't really know such stuff happening.

I assume you can use some translation software or speak German: https://justiz.hamburg.de/gerichte/oberlandesgericht/gericht... By the way, this is a statement by the city itself, not any reporting on it. The statement explicitly states, that the guilt of the perpetrators was established. And they are guilty of raping a person which could not help themselves "Die Angeklagten der ersten und zweiten Gruppe wurden aufgr…

Thanks, didn't know that one.

No, that is horrible, I get less punishment for youth etc. But they know what they did and did it multiple times, and it was nearly systematic (I read about 80 witnesses? wtf is going on?)

Even if you are 15, you know what you are doing is horrible. I hope this dudes suffer in the future, horrendous human beings and the judge should be ashamed.

In such cases, I understand that people take the law into their own hands. Imagine this being your daughter.

Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#64

Post by johnisgood »

im3w1l wrote: post #29
jonahrd wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, people can and do recreationally take GHB quite often. (also commonly used in date rape cases) The same can be said for MDMA, and others

Let me clarify. I meant the following. Assume ghb is found and evidence of sex. The woman claims she didn't take it and didn't want to have sex. Wouldn't this be enough for a conviction?

It should not be enough for a conviction.

Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#65

Post by Beijinger »

squigz wrote: post #41
Beijinger wrote: post #23

[flagged]

What's the elephant? What are you trying to say?

Out of my head: 50% or Rapes are committed by non-German citizens. But they make only 10% of the population.

And these are not Australians, Americans, Japanese or Chinese, they are mainly from countries with tribal structures, different attitudes towards violence and women. Many of them living on social welfare.

This is not a judgment of them, as humans, just an observation based on numbers. The question is: Is this kind of immigration a good idea, or will it lead to instability?

Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#66

Post by Beijinger »

impossiblefork wrote: post #52
Beijinger wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No law, no crime. [nullum crimen sine lege] If aliens land in Germany on a field and a peasant shoots them with his shotgun, he would have committed no crime in my opinion. No murder, since Aliens are not humans. It would not be illegal hunting, since aliens are not animals. Illegal discharge of a firearm? In the US the outcome may be very different.

That is definitely not how German law would deal with the situation in practice. Aliens would certainly be considered people and protected by the law, even if they weren't humans, and they would definitely still be animals. Shooting an alien robot though, then you would have something legally problematic. Ownership? Is it so advanced it's a person? But you'd probably get something like those Star Trek episodes with l…

You don't understand the problem. If we encounter aliens, they would likely make a law to protect them. In the situation I came up with, this is their first encounter with us, and they would NOT be protected.

You are very optimistic that they will be considered animals. For example they would have to live on organic matter. And they would have to have a spine to get more protection since living things with a spine are considered more valuable (Wirbeltiere).

GROK (And using all the Roman law principles on what German law is based):

Nullum crimen, nulla poena sine lege (Art. 103 Abs. 2 Grundgesetz + § 1 StGB) is the decisive wall that the prosecution would smash into in a real first-contact case under current German law. This principle has four sub-requirements (all must be fulfilled for a conviction):

Lex scripta – there must be a written statute → Yes, §§ 211, 212 StGB exist.

Lex certa – the statute must be sufficiently precise → “Mensch” is precise if you are Homo sapiens. It is not precise (in fact completely indeterminate) when the victim is an unknown extraterrestrial species.

Lex stricta – no punishment by analogy, no extension to the detriment of the defendant → This is the killer. → Extending the word “Mensch” in §§ 211/212 to include extraterrestrials would be a clear case of forbidden analogy that worsens the legal position of the accused. → German courts are constitutionally barred from doing this in criminal law (unlike in civil law or constitutional law, where they sometimes stretch concepts to protect victims).

Lex praevia – the law must have existed before the act → Also fulfilled, but irrelevant here.

Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#67

Post by Beijinger »

afiori wrote: post #54
Beijinger wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No law, no crime. [nullum crimen sine lege] If aliens land in Germany on a field and a peasant shoots them with his shotgun, he would have committed no crime in my opinion. No murder, since Aliens are not humans. It would not be illegal hunting, since aliens are not animals. Illegal discharge of a firearm? In the US the outcome may be very different.

Anyway this is a matter of judicial discretion to decide whether personhood and rights would apply to an alien visitor. The only difference between precedent laws and codes is that the judges act as a secondary less stable legislature. You could very well have a mixed system where legislature has to filter and ratify court rulings to decide which become law and which do not. In short this has nothing to do with havin…

You don't understand the problem. If we encounter aliens, they would likely make a law to protect them. In the situation I came up with, this is their first encounter with us, and they would NOT be protected. You are very optimistic that they will be considered animals. For example they would have to live on organic matter. And they would have to have a spine to get more protection since living things with a spine are considered more valuable (Wirbeltiere).

GROK (And using all the Roman law principles on what German law is based):

Nullum crimen, nulla poena sine lege (Art. 103 Abs. 2 Grundgesetz + § 1 StGB) is the decisive wall that the prosecution would smash into in a real first-contact case under current German law. This principle has four sub-requirements (all must be fulfilled for a conviction):

Lex scripta – there must be a written statute → Yes, §§ 211, 212 StGB exist.

Lex certa – the statute must be sufficiently precise → “Mensch” is precise if you are Homo sapiens. It is not precise (in fact completely indeterminate) when the victim is an unknown extraterrestrial species.

Lex stricta – no punishment by analogy, no extension to the detriment of the defendant → This is the killer. → Extending the word “Mensch” in §§ 211/212 to include extraterrestrials would be a clear case of forbidden analogy that worsens the legal position of the accused. → German courts are constitutionally barred from doing this in criminal law (unlike in civil law or constitutional law, where they sometimes stretch concepts to protect victims).

Lex praevia – the law must have existed before the act → Also fulfilled, but irrelevant here.

Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#68

Post by impossiblefork »

Beijinger wrote: post #66
impossiblefork wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is definitely not how German law would deal with the situation in practice. Aliens would certainly be considered people and protected by the law, even if they weren't humans, and they would definitely still be animals. Shooting an alien robot though, then you would have something legally problematic. Ownership? Is it so advanced it's a person? But you'd probably get something like those Star Trek episodes with l…

You don't understand the problem. If we encounter aliens, they would likely make a law to protect them. In the situation I came up with, this is their first encounter with us, and they would NOT be protected. You are very optimistic that they will be considered animals. For example they would have to live on organic matter. And they would have to have a spine to get more protection since living things with a spine ar…

Ah. Yes. You are right. I had to read the law. I can understand the choice to write 'human' there, it becomes very clear, assuming there will be no aliens.

Re: Germany to classify date rape drugs as weapons to ensure justice for survivors

#70

Post by kachapopopow »

BriggyDwiggs42 wrote: post #6
kachapopopow wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Wait did you just put rape in quotes wtf

it is to imply ambiguity which I guess reading it a 2nd time can imply something entirely different woops.
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