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Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

theguardian.com

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Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#61

Post by coffeecat »

cornstalks wrote: post #25
pixelready wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finding everyone’s cow is expensive and time consuming: https://antidepressantcow.org/2020/02/the-story-of-the-antid... But is the only true cure to the suffering. We’d have to undergo a massive reorganization of society (and upset a few hefty profit margins) to prioritize that, so we settle for the messy symptom management we have.

That story doesn’t work for people with depression who otherwise have very good lives. I grew up in a stable household with a loving family and both parents present and supportive. I’ve never had financial hardship, either as a kid depending on my parents to provide or as an adult providing for myself and family. I did very well in school, had plenty of friends, never had enemies, never got bullied or even talked bad…

Take my baseless speculation for what it's worth, but could it be that you were depressed because your life was too easy? We humans are meant to struggle through adversity. Can you really appreciate your financial security if you've never faced financial insecurity, or appreciate companionship if you've never experienced loneliness?

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#62

Post by DANmode »

fragrom wrote: post #13
carsoon wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with suicidal depression is that if someone has created the thought pattern that death is best, then removing the symptoms of depression (lethargy, lack of energy, no willpower) now gives the person the ability to actually follow through with the act. Medications almost always target symptoms and never address root causes.

This is what my psychiatrist more or less warned me about when I went on medication; that a lot of people who are suicidal lack the energy and ability to plan their suicide, and medications can sometimes undo those particular symptoms and people manage to end themselves. I'm not sure what kinds of studies have been done about it, but I've had a few therapists same similar ideas. If it's not a studied phenomenon, then…

[flagged]

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#63

Post by DANmode »

DANmode wrote: post #62
fragrom wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what my psychiatrist more or less warned me about when I went on medication; that a lot of people who are suicidal lack the energy and ability to plan their suicide, and medications can sometimes undo those particular symptoms and people manage to end themselves. I'm not sure what kinds of studies have been done about it, but I've had a few therapists same similar ideas. If it's not a studied phenomenon, then…

[flagged]

This gets even more interesting when you realize many SSRIs are antibacterials.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#64

Post by EasyMark »

shswkna wrote: post #2

From the article: > They can also increase suicidal ideation. A very close family member committed suicide, after Prozac dosage adjustments made his brain chemistry go haywire. This happened 30 years ago, and it has been known to us that Prozac can cause this, since then. The Guardians headline is way, way understating the real situation here.

Isn't that a possibility with a lot of drugs though? I think it depends on the rate and not a "does or does not" type of questions. Now if the drug doesn't help more than a placebo that's clearly a huge negative, but if it has a high rate of success vs placebo then they will make adjustments and watch out for the side-effect (of course) letting patients know it's a possibility and to report if it starts happening.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#65

Post by EasyMark »

tcj_phx wrote: post #53
lemming wrote: post #23

Our 11 year old daughter was seriously depressed recently. N=1, but fluoxetine was life changing (and potentially life saving) for her, at least.

[flagged]

Puberty in general can be rough. I (a dude) had all kinds of bad thoughts and moods going through puberty and then one year it was just gone, grades improved dramatically, started making friends again, etc

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#66

Post by rrrrrrrrrrrryan »

burnt-resistor wrote: post #45

Maybe SSRIs work for some, but Paxil gave me serotonin syndrome and Prozac made my mom psychotically homicidal. I've tried every SSRI titrating on and off (except Paxil), but they all caused deal-breaking side-effects.

Homicidal?

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#67

Post by lemming »

tcj_phx wrote: post #53
lemming wrote: post #23

Our 11 year old daughter was seriously depressed recently. N=1, but fluoxetine was life changing (and potentially life saving) for her, at least.

[flagged]

Do you have a plan to get her off, or is she on the maintenance drug for life?

It's too early to say. Obviously the idea is to get her off it if possible.

SSRIs never help because of boosting serotonin.

That's a hell of a claim, which could use some evidence.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#68

Post by tsoukase »

Antidepressants benefit specific populations, those that have a predominant "internal" stress/depression and not due to a profound external trauma. They will not help a child that is continuously bullied, but one that has inherited a depressive trend. This holds for children and adults, barring some differences due to age maturity. Saying "no difference from placebo" for a treatment that is used by hundreds of millions is poor science, if not misinformation and malice.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#69

Post by cornstalks »

coffeecat wrote: post #61
cornstalks wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That story doesn’t work for people with depression who otherwise have very good lives. I grew up in a stable household with a loving family and both parents present and supportive. I’ve never had financial hardship, either as a kid depending on my parents to provide or as an adult providing for myself and family. I did very well in school, had plenty of friends, never had enemies, never got bullied or even talked bad…

Take my baseless speculation for what it's worth, but could it be that you were depressed because your life was too easy? We humans are meant to struggle through adversity. Can you really appreciate your financial security if you've never faced financial insecurity, or appreciate companionship if you've never experienced loneliness?

It’s a reasonable question but I doubt it. We weren’t affluent at all and I worked my butt off for everything. And that’s good, because I agree that if things are too easy it turns into a curse.

Re: Prozac 'no better than placebo' for treating children with depression, experts

#70

Post by burnt-resistor »

rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote: post #66
burnt-resistor wrote: post #45

Maybe SSRIs work for some, but Paxil gave me serotonin syndrome and Prozac made my mom psychotically homicidal. I've tried every SSRI titrating on and off (except Paxil), but they all caused deal-breaking side-effects.

Homicidal?

Yep. My dad recounted that in 1989, he had to restrain her because she (then age 40) had a psychotic episode described as a "murderous impulse" just after starting a brand new "wonder pill", Prozac. This was quite uncharacteristic for a tiny, docile woman who is often described as "sweet" and "nice" who never had any psychiatric symptoms before or since except a couple of brief times of situational depression. There's a lot of FUD and social ills washing in mass media rather than less biased peer-reviewed research that blames individuals, conflates preexisting conditions with medication side-effects, and clouds the issue of whether SSRIs increase suicide and/or violent psychosis or not.

Check out one of the modern black box warnings of fluoxetine (Prozac) that only addresses a subset of side-effects, suicide in children and young adults: https://dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/fda/fdaDrugXsl.cfm?set...

Somehow, I doubt there is much motivation to look for economically inconvenient and unnerving side-effects in some demographics, especially if they're adults who can easily be blamed entirely for all of their own actions because it's "definitely not" due to a (formerly) profitable pill or a pseudoscientific profession that doesn't exactly know how the medications it prescribes work, who would benefit from or be harmed by them, or have any ability to measure the organ or system they're supposed treating.

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