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Dr Matthew Garrett v Dr Roy Schestowitz and Anor

caselaw.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Re: Dr Matthew Garrett v Dr Roy Schestowitz and Anor

#61

Post by nikanj »

mjg59 wrote: post #52

The final order implementing the judgement isn't out yet so I'm not going to go into too much detail here as yet, but there's additional publicly available information I can share: The original claim: https://codon.org.uk/~mjg59/case/Claims.pdf The defence and counterclaim: https://codon.org.uk/~mjg59/case/Defence_Counterclaim.pdf The associated schedule of harassment: https://codon.org.uk/~mjg59/case/Schedule.pdf Th…

Do lawsuits ever really end, or do the parties just run out of money? Isn’t the SCO v. Linux thing still shambling on in some court?

Re: Dr Matthew Garrett v Dr Roy Schestowitz and Anor

#62

Post by tptacek »

ceejayoz wrote: post #13
kasabali wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> £70,000 in "damages" Damn, libel law is ridiculous.

UK libel law is very friendly to the plaintiff.

Take a few minutes to poke around TechRights Garrett pages. This easily would have cleared the per se threshold in the US, too, although the damages assessment would not have been as straightforward.

Re: Dr Matthew Garrett v Dr Roy Schestowitz and Anor

#63

Post by mjg59 »

mjg59 wrote: post #52

The final order implementing the judgement isn't out yet so I'm not going to go into too much detail here as yet, but there's additional publicly available information I can share: The original claim: https://codon.org.uk/~mjg59/case/Claims.pdf The defence and counterclaim: https://codon.org.uk/~mjg59/case/Defence_Counterclaim.pdf The associated schedule of harassment: https://codon.org.uk/~mjg59/case/Schedule.pdf Th…

One thing that didn't end up happening - the claim that he would have multiple people, including Linus Torvalds, Richard Stallman, Bruce Perens, and John Gilmore testify against me.

Re: Dr Matthew Garrett v Dr Roy Schestowitz and Anor

#64

Post by tptacek »

hamdingers wrote: post #41
raphlinus wrote: post #4

Matthew's side of the story is here: https://mastodon.online/@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer/115...

Here's the other side, for what it's worth: https://news.tuxmachines.org/n/2025/11/20/Today_s_Judgement....

A grim portent for their mental health, given the attempt to reframe a judgement that demolished them and called them "character assassins" as supportive.

Really, though, this is the first time I've ever looked at TechRights for real, and the whole place is very... Always Sunny meme.

Re: Dr Matthew Garrett v Dr Roy Schestowitz and Anor

#65

Post by mjg59 »

nikanj wrote: post #61
mjg59 wrote: post #52

The final order implementing the judgement isn't out yet so I'm not going to go into too much detail here as yet, but there's additional publicly available information I can share: The original claim: https://codon.org.uk/~mjg59/case/Claims.pdf The defence and counterclaim: https://codon.org.uk/~mjg59/case/Defence_Counterclaim.pdf The associated schedule of harassment: https://codon.org.uk/~mjg59/case/Schedule.pdf Th…

Do lawsuits ever really end, or do the parties just run out of money? Isn’t the SCO v. Linux thing still shambling on in some court?

Other than reaching agreement over the order to implement the judgement, this is likely over - my understanding is that an appeal could only occur if the judge made an error of law, and they would need to convince another judge of this before being granted permission to appeal.

Re: Dr Matthew Garrett v Dr Roy Schestowitz and Anor

#66

Post by ceejayoz »

tptacek wrote: post #62
ceejayoz wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UK libel law is very friendly to the plaintiff.

Take a few minutes to poke around TechRights Garrett pages. This easily would have cleared the per se threshold in the US, too, although the damages assessment would not have been as straightforward.

I'm not second-guessing this particular case; today's the first I've heard of it.

I'm just noting that the American concept of libel and the British concept of libel are wildly different in practice.

Re: Dr Matthew Garrett v Dr Roy Schestowitz and Anor

#67

Post by sevg »

mjg59 wrote: post #58
fancyfredbot wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The legal fees are not included. They are probably very high. I'm not a lawyer but other similar cases have fees in the range of 150K to 300K. It's a life changing amount of money. The stakes are very high for both sides. Honestly it's really sad that this happened and I am not sure anyone has come out happy.

My fees came to about 260K GBP so far - while it's likely I'll be awarded some percentage of that, that doesn't mean I'll actually see any of it. As you say, it's not the sort of thing that anyone actually comes out of happy.

> it's not the sort of thing that anyone actually comes out of happy

The lawyers do! :sweat_smile:

Re: Dr Matthew Garrett v Dr Roy Schestowitz and Anor

#68

Post by tptacek »

ceejayoz wrote: post #66
tptacek wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take a few minutes to poke around TechRights Garrett pages. This easily would have cleared the per se threshold in the US, too, although the damages assessment would not have been as straightforward.

I'm not second-guessing this particular case; today's the first I've heard of it. I'm just noting that the American concept of libel and the British concept of libel are wildly different in practice.

Except that the "Opinion" defense in this judgement is fussier than US law (in US law, opinion is flat-out protected, honest or otherwise, so long as it doesn't directly claim to be based on undisclosed false facts), this reads pretty similar to a US libel case. I get that the two countries have very different legal doctrines on defamation, but they don't seem to be on display here.

Also: a US judge would have been a lot less nice to the defendants.

Re: Dr Matthew Garrett v Dr Roy Schestowitz and Anor

#69

Post by pessimizer »

nairboon wrote: post #22
pavel_lishin wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also matters - or at least, should - whether you're expressing your opinion ("this guy is a fucking asshole"), vs. a claim of fact ("that diver is a pedophile"). I would not particularly want to express myself in a world where calling someone an asshole has a non-trivial chance of costing me £70k plus court fees.

What's the difference between your examples? Both sentences could be an opinion or a fact.

Everything anyone says is an "opinion" according to some definitions of "opinion." The distinction here is whether something is a claim of fact or simply a claim. A claim of fact is something that can be verified through some sort of objective measurement or detection.

"Some pigs fly," "Bill Johnson signed over his rights to the song," and "This fish is 3 pounds, 4 ounces" are claims of fact.

"Some pigs are beautiful," "Bill Johnson writes too many songs," and "People who catch fish are probably the same type of people who support terrorists" are just claims.

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