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Childhood Friends, Not Moms, Shape Attachment Styles Most

nautil.us

61–70 of 109 posts

Re: Childhood Friends, Not Moms, Shape Attachment Styles Most

#61

> But early friendship bonds played an even bigger part than maternal relationships in the ways people navigated adult friendships and romantic partnerships, accounting for 4 percent of the variance in adults’ romantic partner- and best friend-specific attachment anxiety, and 10 to 11 percent in their partner- and best friend-specific avoidance. Are those numbers r-squared figures? Seems like there's a lot more varia…

Right. It also suggests two possibilities:

1. Maybe the measurements are just very noisy. In which case they may also have other biases. 2. Maybe there are systematic causes which the study didn't capture. If so, controlling for them might change the results.

Sigh. When I see a study headline like this I feel confident about two things. First, the study will have a weak design with no serious attention paid to causality, genetic confounding etc... second, the response to it will be full of people going "yes, that fits my N=1 anecdote" or "no that doesn't fit my N=1 anecdote", in other words, critiquing the weak methodology with an even weaker methodology (handwaving appeals to personal experience).

One reason social science is hard is there isn't much market for the truth. People just want a nice story to tell themselves.

Re: Childhood Friends, Not Moms, Shape Attachment Styles Most

#62
post #28

No, one study doesn’t upend the last few decades of understanding of emotional attachment. The study simply says that ability to connect w friends is more predictive than observations they made of apparent attachment of parents. This happens much later so of course it’s more predictive of the actual end effects - that’s when attachment styles actually show up for the first time. Kids grow up to be very adaptive towar…

Bingo. This kind of science reporting is the worst.

Re: Childhood Friends, Not Moms, Shape Attachment Styles Most

#63
post #50
post #20

I've observed children who have had tremendous close friends in childhood but were unable to recreate that in adulthood. Sometimes it's easier to make friends when you're 5.

There's a joke here... Q: How do you make friends in Boston? A: Same way everyone else does. In kindergarten.

This would be very apt for Scandinavia too.

Re: Childhood Friends, Not Moms, Shape Attachment Styles Most

#64

We've known roughly this since The Nurture Assumption (1998). Where parents do have an impact is in being able to choose the social circles their children are immersed in.

The discussion of toddlers more or less code switching is quite interesting. Once they have a sense of self, even little kids will be very careful about revealing their home life to their school friends, and the same about school to their parents.

Haha I can see myself in that. I was terrified of my mom knowing what my school social life was like as I felt terribly embarrassed that some kids made fun of me and things like that.

Re: Childhood Friends, Not Moms, Shape Attachment Styles Most

#65

My first reaction was to refute this, but I think I've convinced myself this may be correct, assuming attachment styles are the right frame. I've been painted with the Avoidant brush, and logically it makes sense, broken home, removed from mother, moved regularly changing schools once a year for 5 years. However, my siblings are the opposite. We come from the same house, they didn't change schools as often as I did,…

The family is a system, with different roles played by each participant. For instance, in toxic families, there is often one scapegoat, with an anxious attachment style, that affords the avoidant types in the family to participate in delusions. What are the dynamics like of everyone in your family?

Wow that explains a lot

Re: Childhood Friends, Not Moms, Shape Attachment Styles Most

#66

My first reaction was to refute this, but I think I've convinced myself this may be correct, assuming attachment styles are the right frame. I've been painted with the Avoidant brush, and logically it makes sense, broken home, removed from mother, moved regularly changing schools once a year for 5 years. However, my siblings are the opposite. We come from the same house, they didn't change schools as often as I did,…

The family is a system, with different roles played by each participant. For instance, in toxic families, there is often one scapegoat, with an anxious attachment style, that affords the avoidant types in the family to participate in delusions. What are the dynamics like of everyone in your family?

I wanted to say the same: parents don't treat all children the same. For example, I have the feeling that the first child is the "practice" child. The parents learn from the mistakes made with them and don't repeat them with the children that follow. I don't know if there's any research to back this up and yes, I am a first born.

Re: Childhood Friends, Not Moms, Shape Attachment Styles Most

#67
post #55
post #28

No, one study doesn’t upend the last few decades of understanding of emotional attachment. The study simply says that ability to connect w friends is more predictive than observations they made of apparent attachment of parents. This happens much later so of course it’s more predictive of the actual end effects - that’s when attachment styles actually show up for the first time. Kids grow up to be very adaptive towar…

My own anecdotal experience matches this. I have a (now adult) child who was diagnosed with Reactive Attachment Disorder. She changed friends every 6 months, burning bridges behind her. She also cultivated the least-healthy friendships possible in whatever environment she found herself in.

What was the etiology?

Re: Childhood Friends, Not Moms, Shape Attachment Styles Most

#68

My first reaction was to refute this, but I think I've convinced myself this may be correct, assuming attachment styles are the right frame. I've been painted with the Avoidant brush, and logically it makes sense, broken home, removed from mother, moved regularly changing schools once a year for 5 years. However, my siblings are the opposite. We come from the same house, they didn't change schools as often as I did,…

The family is a system, with different roles played by each participant. For instance, in toxic families, there is often one scapegoat, with an anxious attachment style, that affords the avoidant types in the family to participate in delusions. What are the dynamics like of everyone in your family?

Remember how the modern "nucular" household is largely based on a modernization of the Roman patriarchal property distribution model, where the oldest male was ascribed the identities of all members of his household, and vice versa?

That must've been extremely efficient for legal and accounting purposes, once. But, well, the only theory of mind anyone could develop in such circumstances involves grinding minds into fine paste. (There's a reason the Stoics are "seeing" an AI-driven resurgence, even though what'd be most appropriate for their target audience is probably again Skinner.)

Remember how a great deal of how we live our "personal" lives was invented in a slaveholding state which mandated belief in gods and demons. And the rest in another.

We are taught to consider all of this legacy cultural structure in terms of "haha how quaintly did people live 1000-2000-3000 years ago, were they stupid". Yet most of it lives on in some marginally altered form due to sheer global force of habit.

Take Western human naming schemes for example: does your government permit you to change your name? do you inherit one or both granddads' names? do you get a patronym? extra personal names? are you also the security force for a place, like a Freiherr de So-and-So? and at what exact number of levels of recursive self-reflection does the word "person" stop meaning the role played, and starts meaning the human playing it?

(When you're done with "identity", continue with "time-keeping" and begin to understand another psychological phenomenon causing much suffering - people's generalized inability to discern cause and effect.)

The name - the sound through which individuals are conditioned to respond to the concepts of selfhood and identity (Foobert Barber Baznix! you come here right this instant! it is not me but you who is sleepy and hungry!) - is one of many such extremely arbitrary implementation details.

Out of those emerges the thing sold to us by our caregivers and educators as "normal life" before we are able to know any better. That's the main way "primary socialization" has ever worked: a non-consensual intergenerational transmission of habits that have as much to do with self-soothing in the face of mortality as with practical concerns; in the end they just ascribe "imaginariness" to your memories of your mind being wiped, and the "you" is ready to go.

Now, in the context of all those vague and admittedly entirely hypothetical "implementation details", proceed to imagine the troop of clothed primates not as a flat list of incidental blood relations, but as a dynamic system, a living group of conscious things; if you're feeling particularly scifi - a sort of distributed organism. What would be the purpose of the scapegoat organ in that organism? Do individual primates have an equivalent organ in their bodies? (Probably not the one you're thinking of but also a valid guess)

Re: Childhood Friends, Not Moms, Shape Attachment Styles Most

#69
I believe this is called the post-treatment bias. If the causal arrow goes (mother-baby) -> (child-friends) -> (adult-attachment) and you include the middle one, you have already controlled for the first, and the effect disappears. Learning about the first tells you very little more once you have learnt the second.

Re: Childhood Friends, Not Moms, Shape Attachment Styles Most

#70
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist. My observation is the more difficult cases of attachment in important adult relationships esp. partner/spouse is far more impacted by parents and their relationship than friends. This doesn't gain say that in the ages of 15 to say 35 peer interactions are not there or impactful to the worse or better but extremes in the nuclear family are not to be underestimated.

It could be said that for any of us to think we could understand - with such a relatively short and still arguably shoddy understanding of the mind - or especially could say… is possibly insane.

Not sure what you're after in that comment. The entire description of mind is maybe not shoddy but definitely high level functional meaning it always comes with a Chinese menu of if/and/but on a scale of emphasis in linear combination with other facets.

Attachment modalities as far as I can see describes some human dynamics.

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