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Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

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Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#61

Post by aniviacat »

otikik wrote: post #28
Pet_Ant wrote: post #12

I think the lack of social safety net in the US is a gun to the head of American workers that gets more productivity out of them (at the cost of well-being which isn't accounted for). The billionaires are necessary as aspirational opiate that allows those same people to work themselves to death with the balm that they too will soon join the ranks of the billionaires. Let's not even start on how the American economy d…

> undocumented immigrants which function as disposable citizens I am afraid that is not a problem exclusive to the United States. Perhaps it is more prevalent there, I don't have the numbers, but it also happens in Europe. What we don't usually have is a "backdoor" for slavery in the form of penal labor enshrined in our Constitutions. > I do not think there is an ethical way to challenge the American economy. Support…

> What we don't usually have is a "backdoor" for slavery in the form of penal labor enshrined in our Constitutions.

I don't know if you meant to exclude this using the word "usually", but Germany has a backdoor for slavery in the form of penal labor enshrined in its constitution [1]. And it's not just enshrined in the constitution, it is actually active law [2].

[1] In the German constitution, Article 12 (3), it says:

> Zwangsarbeit ist nur bei einer gerichtlich angeordneten Freiheitsentziehung zulässig.

[2] In the StVollzG, Section 41 (1), it says:

> Der Gefangene ist verpflichtet, eine ihm zugewiesene, seinen körperlichen Fähigkeiten angemessene Arbeit, arbeitstherapeutische oder sonstige Beschäftigung auszuüben, zu deren Verrichtung er auf Grund seines körperlichen Zustandes in der Lage ist.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#62

Post by blfr »

tschellenbach wrote: post #52

I'm Dutch, the media narrative is a major problem. It's not being honest about the level of relative decline between USA & NL. 20 years of diverging growth rates has had a massive impact. This trend will continue, since NL missed most of the internet, mobile, social and AI startups. Here in Colorado even people at entry level jobs can afford a nice home. Salaries are way lower in NL, and housing is incredibly expensi…

A lot of Polish media outlets seem to have completely forgone reporting from abroad. I don't even think it's propaganda, they just lost viewership to the Internet and found that there are cheaper ways to fill the airwaves than news from faraway countries requiring expensive local crews/reporters.

But yes, even many policy wonks / talking heads don't seem to realize the divergence between EU15 and the US since 2007.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#63

Post by fijiaarone »

otikik wrote: post #28
Pet_Ant wrote: post #12

I think the lack of social safety net in the US is a gun to the head of American workers that gets more productivity out of them (at the cost of well-being which isn't accounted for). The billionaires are necessary as aspirational opiate that allows those same people to work themselves to death with the balm that they too will soon join the ranks of the billionaires. Let's not even start on how the American economy d…

> undocumented immigrants which function as disposable citizens I am afraid that is not a problem exclusive to the United States. Perhaps it is more prevalent there, I don't have the numbers, but it also happens in Europe. What we don't usually have is a "backdoor" for slavery in the form of penal labor enshrined in our Constitutions. > I do not think there is an ethical way to challenge the American economy. Support…

Less than 0.0001% of economic output in the USA is performed by penal labor, mostly by non-incarcerated people (e.g. court mandated community service such as road cleanup as penalty for traffic violations).

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#64

Post by fijiaarone »

Mistletoe wrote: post #2

It always amazes me that some Europeans look to the USA as some goal to aspire to. As an American, all I’m trying to do is get rich enough to move to Europe someday. There are greater goals than growth at all costs. Things like respecting the humans that live there and putting their well-being above corporations. If that thwarts “growth”, so be it.

Vacation every day, right?

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#65

Post by bryanlarsen »

tschellenbach wrote: post #52

I'm Dutch, the media narrative is a major problem. It's not being honest about the level of relative decline between USA & NL. 20 years of diverging growth rates has had a massive impact. This trend will continue, since NL missed most of the internet, mobile, social and AI startups. Here in Colorado even people at entry level jobs can afford a nice home. Salaries are way lower in NL, and housing is incredibly expensi…

It's stagnation in the headline, not decline. There's a massive difference. European GDP per capita has been roughly 75% of America's for the last 50 years.

Over that same period, American GDP per capita has more than doubled, even after adjusting for inflation.

Which means that European GDP per capita has also more than doubled. 75% of an increasing number is also an increasing number.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#66

Post by Pet_Ant »

boc wrote: post #54
Pet_Ant wrote: post #12

I think the lack of social safety net in the US is a gun to the head of American workers that gets more productivity out of them (at the cost of well-being which isn't accounted for). The billionaires are necessary as aspirational opiate that allows those same people to work themselves to death with the balm that they too will soon join the ranks of the billionaires. Let's not even start on how the American economy d…

The US actually has a series of social safety nets. There are massive government programs like Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security which provide real, measurable safety nets to the most vulnerable in society. There are also hundreds of thousands of charities, churches, and non-profit organizations that donate time, money, and resources to assist families going through hard times. There is also the US Military, wh…

1) It's subsidised through cheap labor. The start-up whose founder live and work in buildings built by undocumented labor. Eat food grown by that labor, and served from food trucks run by undocumented labor. It's innovation subsidised by misery.

2) the brain-drain is unethical because it takes subsidised education of individuals without returning anything in return. Emmigrants should get a bill of the cost of their upbringing. It's really free-loading, especially for a country with such a poor public education system as the US.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#67

Post by fijiaarone »

bilbo0s wrote: post #56
robtherobber wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Believe me, it amazes many of us Europeans too. We have a real life example of how those policies will eventually play out (and tens of years of research that confirm the immense disbenefits of such an approach), and yet here we are.

Problem is that there's also a " real life example of how those policies will eventually play out (and tens of years of research that confirm the immense [benefits to the billionaires] of such an approach) ". Just as in the US, the billionaires wield enormous influence. Maybe not quite as much, but pretty close. So as long as there are benefits to the wealthy of these policies, I think the Europeans will pursue them.…

The American billionaire class absolutely controls Europe, and American politics dictates European policy. There is the illusion of European ascendance right now because the American soft power is being channeled through Europe because the faction of the US government (that still controls the majority of soft power) is out of power politically, so they project their values (and funnel their money) through Europeans.

When a Democrat returns to power in the USA, nobody will care what European vassal governments and corporations say or do anymore.

American projection through Europe has made Europe weaker and more subservient than ever.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#68

Post by xp84 »

fijiaarone wrote: post #63
otikik wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> undocumented immigrants which function as disposable citizens I am afraid that is not a problem exclusive to the United States. Perhaps it is more prevalent there, I don't have the numbers, but it also happens in Europe. What we don't usually have is a "backdoor" for slavery in the form of penal labor enshrined in our Constitutions. > I do not think there is an ethical way to challenge the American economy. Support…

Less than 0.0001% of economic output in the USA is performed by penal labor, mostly by non-incarcerated people (e.g. court mandated community service such as road cleanup as penalty for traffic violations).

The people who are offended by the practice of prison labor will never let that issue go, even though it’s opt-in — you have to commit felonies in order to go to prison.

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#69

Post by toomuchtodo »

fijiaarone wrote: post #36
mothballed wrote: post #10

"Output per head" is total population? If so the slight downward trajectory likely reflects the aging population of europe.

The average age of the population of Europe has gotten significantly lower over the last decade.

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/mapped-the-median-age-in-ev...

https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jesusfv/Slides_London.pdf

Re: Europe converged rapidly on the United States before stagnating

#70

Post by [deleted] »

tschellenbach wrote: post #52

I'm Dutch, the media narrative is a major problem. It's not being honest about the level of relative decline between USA & NL. 20 years of diverging growth rates has had a massive impact. This trend will continue, since NL missed most of the internet, mobile, social and AI startups. Here in Colorado even people at entry level jobs can afford a nice home. Salaries are way lower in NL, and housing is incredibly expensi…

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