Live data from Hacker News

What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

hackaday.com

61–70 of 315 posts

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#61
post #57

The TPM and secure boot conversation for gaming has shifted my perspective a lot. This technology is having a positive impact on player experience. It has become quite clear to me that there are wheels that will squeak regardless of the amount of lubricant used. I've begun to consider the position of being able to run anything my way at any time on any machine as being a bit extremist. Especially, in a game theoretic…

That same box that lets me play Battlefield 6 is also the only box powerful enough to run the game that doesn't have enough accessibility options that requires me to use CheatEngine to fix.

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#62
> The moment gaming became genuinely profitable, console manufacturers realized they could control their entire ecosystem. Proprietary formats, region systems, and lockout chips were all valid ways to ensure companies could levy hefty licensing fees from developers.

This is historically inaccurate. All console games were originally produced in-house by the console manufacturers, but then 4 Atari programmers got wind that the games they wrote made tens of $millions for Atari while the programmers were paid only a relatively small salary. When Atari management refused to give the programmers a cut, they left and formed Activision. Thus Activision became the original third-party console game development company. Atari sued Activision for theft of trade secrets, because the Activision founders were all former Atari programmers. The case was settled, with Atari getting a cut of Activision’s revenue but otherwise allowing Activision to continue developing console games. I suspect this was because the 4 programmers were considered irreplaceable to Atari (albeit too late, after they already quit).

The licensing fee business model was a product of this unique set of circumstances. The article author's narrative makes it sound like consoles switched from open to closed, but that's not true. The consoles (like the iPhone) switched from totally closed to having a third-party platform, after the value of third-party developers was shown.

> Consumers loved having access to a library of clean and functional apps, built right into the device.

How can you say they're "built right into the device" when you have to download them? Moreover, you were originally able to buy iPhone apps in iTunes for Mac, and manage your iPhone via USB.

> Meanwhile, they didn’t really care that they couldn’t run whatever kooky app some random on the Internet had dreamed up.

I'm not sure how you can say consumers didn't really care. Some people have always cared. It's a tradeoff, though: you would have to care enough to not buy an iPhone altogether. That's not the same as not caring at all. Also, remember that for the first year, iPhone didn't even have third-party apps.

> At the time, this approach largely stayed within the console gaming world. It didn’t spread to actual computers because computers were tools. You didn’t buy a PC to consume content someone else curated for you.

I would say this was largely due to Steve Wozniack, who insisted that the Apple II be an open platform. If Steve Jobs—who always expressed contempt for third-party developers—originally had his way, the whole computing industry might have been very different. Jobs always considered them "freeloaders", which is ridiculous of course (for example, VisiCalc is responsible for much of the success off the Apple II), but that was his ridiculous view.

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#63

> Sadly, over the years, Android has been steadily walking back that openness. The justifications are always reasonable on their face. Security updates need to be mandatory because users are terrible at remembering to update. Sideloading apps need to come with warnings because users will absolutely install malware if you let them just click a button. Root access is too dangerous because it puts the security of the wh…

100% agree. This is a recurring pattern: people make bad choices, mostly out of ignorance, but no one blames the public because we always assume that in a democracy the costumer and the voter are always right. Behind every corrupt politician or every greedy corporation there are thousands or millions of negligent and ignorant voters and costumers.

And like, with the ubiquity of this tech, I have to kind of concede at least some of the point. A smartphone is just shy of essential for modern living these days. Banking, purchase of goods and services, managing your relationship with your city and state, filing taxes, getting directions, ALL communications, all occur via your phone. Your phone is not MERELY a computer, a CPU with memory attached that you can make do things, for most people, I'd say it's an essential piece of IT hardware. Most people would prefer, I think, to lose their computers, TV's, consoles, etc. far before their phone. A phone is CRITICAL now, for better and worse.

So it sucks ass that a greater and greater share of what we consider computing has to occur in platforms that are utterly locked down to the core, but again, at the same time, putting my "regular user" hat on here: I don't want my phone to run anything from an untrustworthy source. My computer? Shit yeah, I'll try just about anything with a healthy skepticism as required, but not my phone. Losing a computer is irritating. Losing a phone is a fucking MESS.

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#64
post #4

I was there, 3000 years ago, when we started ringing the bell about “trusted computing”. Honestly it’s not as bad as I expected

I have an ugly hunch that systemd gonna be Google Play Services of Linux at some point. I beg history to prove me wrong. For anyone interested, please look at Hardware attestation and TiVoization, thanks.

Well systemd is open source so it could just be forked at any point. I don't forsee this happening.

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#65

This idea that protecting users is worth the cost of giving up your ownership rights is fallacious. Protecting 1 million grannies is an entirely different risk class than the security implications of stopping everyone from using their devices as they see fit. Protecting 1 million grannies means everyone loses ability to install apps that: -allow encrypted chat -allow use of privacy respecting software -download art/g…

> To access [...] health services in my country, I require a mobile device that is remote attested by either Apple or Google

I knew of banks, but how is it that health services need remote attested mobile devices? Do clinics not support setting appointments through calls anymore, or what?

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#67
It's important to understand that we could genuinely lose general purpose computing. I don't think it's in serious danger at the moment, but we've been in the midst of a slide in that direction for the last 10-15 years. Part of it is mobile phones, part of it is TPM, part of it is market forces. The latest turn is strictly political. We've really foolishly built the technology necessary for authoritarianism just a few years head of a general global trend towards authoritarianism. At the moment, anyone can use Linux; it's better and easier than ever. Will the laws of your country make it harder or more difficult to avoid? Will major vendors lock you out of basic functions? Will age verification require an agent run on your Windows or macOS computer? (or worse, require the use of a smart phone just to use the internet?)

We're not anywhere there yet, but we're closer than we've ever been, and things keep moving in the wrong direction.

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#69
post #65

This idea that protecting users is worth the cost of giving up your ownership rights is fallacious. Protecting 1 million grannies is an entirely different risk class than the security implications of stopping everyone from using their devices as they see fit. Protecting 1 million grannies means everyone loses ability to install apps that: -allow encrypted chat -allow use of privacy respecting software -download art/g…

> To access [...] health services in my country, I require a mobile device that is remote attested by either Apple or Google I knew of banks, but how is it that health services need remote attested mobile devices? Do clinics not support setting appointments through calls anymore, or what?

In my country, the same verification service is used to access banks, health services (private and public), taxes, and even verify online retail purchases. This verification app on Android requires Play Integrity on first time activation so fresh installs of something like GrapheneOS will not let you use the app. It's still currently possible to use a hardware token alternative to the app. It is only getting less convenient and possible to opt out of the digital verification systems even if there's technically still workarounds. In the past, even when such verification systems existed, they were less user constricting (no requirements on remote attestation for example).

I believe if we look at the past compared to now, and then extrapolate towards the future, without proper action, we will keep slipping down the slope.

Re: What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?

#70
post #4

I was there, 3000 years ago, when we started ringing the bell about “trusted computing”. Honestly it’s not as bad as I expected

Alternate take: it's exactly as bad as you expected, but your timeline was off.

And even so, perhaps it's later than you realize. Device attestation in the browser is the final nail in the coffin, and it's a question of "when" not "if" major sites start requiring it in the name of "safety" from bots.

Post reply on HN