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Tesla reveals Supercharger network, Free Fill Ups

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Re: Tesla reveals Supercharger network, Free Fill Ups

#61

Post by toomuchtodo »

w1ntermute wrote: post #51

Come on, 30 minutes for a charge that'll get you just 180 miles? I just checked the 2012 Honda Civic specs[0], you can fill up with 13.2 gallons in 2 or 3 minutes, and that'll get you 13.2*32 mpg combined = 422 miles. There's no way this is gonna work unless the charging process is much faster or they swap batteries instead. 0: http://www.edmunds.com/honda/civic/2012/road-test-specs.html

Get that Honda Civic then; I'm going to hold onto my Model S reservation. I have to drive more than 180 miles in a day? Oh no! I'll have to rent a car from Enterprise or Zipcar!

Fueleconomy.gov says it costs $3,550/year to fuel my 2008 Infiniti G37 (at $4.75/gal, premium), and $400/year to fuel my Model S (assuming 15K miles/year). That's a savings of over $15750 over 5 years (assuming the price of petroleum-based fuels doesn't go up, which it will).

The end of oil is near, not just because we're running out, but because we can do better.

Re: Tesla reveals Supercharger network, Free Fill Ups

#62

Post by ericd »

surrealize wrote: post #50

Making a "charging station" that could take the place of an existing gas station would be huge feat of engineering. When I go from the SF bay area down to LA, I get gas at kettleman city (because of the in-n-out :) and I go to the chevron station there. From google street view, it looks like that station can fuel 12 cars at a time. And when I'm there, there's often a line for a pump. A gas stop takes, say, 2 minutes.…

The interesting thing is that people will mainly be charging at home, though, and will never need to visit a charging station - the car will be topped up every morning when you leave for work. So the number of fillups needing to be done at a station should be much lower. But an interesting point otherwise! I'd guess that the marginal cost of the plugs is low enough that it's feasible, though.

Re: Tesla reveals Supercharger network, Free Fill Ups

#63

Post by w1ntermute »

ericd wrote: post #56
w1ntermute wrote: post #51

Come on, 30 minutes for a charge that'll get you just 180 miles? I just checked the 2012 Honda Civic specs[0], you can fill up with 13.2 gallons in 2 or 3 minutes, and that'll get you 13.2*32 mpg combined = 422 miles. There's no way this is gonna work unless the charging process is much faster or they swap batteries instead. 0: http://www.edmunds.com/honda/civic/2012/road-test-specs.html

Are you comparing charging stats unironically and saying it's a dealbreaker if it's not just as good as the incumbent in this category? It's really not that terrible to stop for 30 minutes after 3 hours of driving. Long road trips just went from wildly impractical to almost convenient, assuming the chargers are well distributed. You could compare the 0-60 times of the Civic and say it's unacceptable that it takes the…

> Are you comparing charging stats unironically and saying it's a dealbreaker if it's not just as good as the incumbent in this category?

Yes, I can guarantee you that the layman doesn't give two shits about electric cars. Until it's cheaper and/or more convenient for him than gas cars, he won't switch. And until laymen switch, you won't get the economies of scale necessary for a vast charging network.

> assuming the chargers are well distributed.

That's a pretty big assumption. First of all, Musk said there are charging stations in several cities in California, but exactly how many are there in each city? Do you have to go to one particular location in each city for charging? Because that's DOA. There's no such thing as one convenient location for everyone.

And don't forget that right now all the testing is being done in California and Nevada, both of which are well known for their plentiful sunlight. But how much energy will the solar panels be able to contribute back to the grid when installed in a place like Seattle? Far less, I'm guessing.

Re: Tesla reveals Supercharger network, Free Fill Ups

#64

Post by wmf »

jerrya wrote: post #39
benackles wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. 30 minutes is too long to charge for any practical purpose. They're going to have to improve the wait time if they're going to break out of the uber EV geek community. The Better Place battery switching model, while it may not be feasible for current models it has to be the goal for future models. It also seems as thought there should be more partnerships involved in reaching the type of scale there going to…

If it was safe and quick, I would prefer the battery swap model because as it is now, I am terrified (maybe ignorance) of getting a bum set of batteries or mis-charging them, and ending up with a $5 - $10K bill for new batteries for my car. It would seem the swap model would most likely spread the cost and maintenance to many users and leave charging to the experts.

getting a bum set of batteries

That would be covered under warranty like any defect on any car.

or mis-charging them

As long as you don't let them get completely empty, this is impossible.

Re: Tesla reveals Supercharger network, Free Fill Ups

#65

Post by jlgreco »

001sky wrote: post #55
jlgreco wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well for one, you presumably get paid to put power back into the grid. Secondly, is there not value in putting as much power into the grid as you consume anyway?

The problem is, in the case you propose, Tesla would be creating installations in urban environments. This type of "development" kills their credibility on "green" or environmentalism, etc. Is this kind of thing better than hydropower?

Hydropower is pretty gnarly from an environmental standpoint. And I doubt the land they are using would otherwise remain undeveloped.. it is an urban area after all.

Perhaps solar in previously undeveloped areas would be better? I doubt that. Developing solar plants in undeveloped areas only to put the charging stations in urban areas (that is where the market demands them after all) hardly seems better than putting charging stations in urban areas and sticking some solar there too. What is there to be gained from not putting solar wherever you can?

Re: Tesla reveals Supercharger network, Free Fill Ups

#66

Post by wmf »

w1ntermute wrote: post #63
ericd wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you comparing charging stats unironically and saying it's a dealbreaker if it's not just as good as the incumbent in this category? It's really not that terrible to stop for 30 minutes after 3 hours of driving. Long road trips just went from wildly impractical to almost convenient, assuming the chargers are well distributed. You could compare the 0-60 times of the Civic and say it's unacceptable that it takes the…

> Are you comparing charging stats unironically and saying it's a dealbreaker if it's not just as good as the incumbent in this category? Yes, I can guarantee you that the layman doesn't give two shits about electric cars. Until it's cheaper and/or more convenient for him than gas cars, he won't switch. And until laymen switch, you won't get the economies of scale necessary for a vast charging network. > assuming the…

These superchargers are for road trips, so a location just off a highway exit is convenient for everyone.

For places without plentiful solar, hydro, or wind, we know the solution (the n-word) but we just lack the political will to implement it.

Re: Tesla reveals Supercharger network, Free Fill Ups

#67

Post by ericd »

w1ntermute wrote: post #63
ericd wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you comparing charging stats unironically and saying it's a dealbreaker if it's not just as good as the incumbent in this category? It's really not that terrible to stop for 30 minutes after 3 hours of driving. Long road trips just went from wildly impractical to almost convenient, assuming the chargers are well distributed. You could compare the 0-60 times of the Civic and say it's unacceptable that it takes the…

> Are you comparing charging stats unironically and saying it's a dealbreaker if it's not just as good as the incumbent in this category? Yes, I can guarantee you that the layman doesn't give two shits about electric cars. Until it's cheaper and/or more convenient for him than gas cars, he won't switch. And until laymen switch, you won't get the economies of scale necessary for a vast charging network. > assuming the…

Day to day it is already more convenient, because you charge mostly at home - you never have to go to the gas station in the first place. It's pretty rare that I have to drive more than 100 miles in a day, and when I do, I'm really happy to stop for half an hour here and there to stretch my legs.

Re: Tesla reveals Supercharger network, Free Fill Ups

#68

Post by underwater »

w1ntermute wrote: post #63
ericd wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you comparing charging stats unironically and saying it's a dealbreaker if it's not just as good as the incumbent in this category? It's really not that terrible to stop for 30 minutes after 3 hours of driving. Long road trips just went from wildly impractical to almost convenient, assuming the chargers are well distributed. You could compare the 0-60 times of the Civic and say it's unacceptable that it takes the…

> Are you comparing charging stats unironically and saying it's a dealbreaker if it's not just as good as the incumbent in this category? Yes, I can guarantee you that the layman doesn't give two shits about electric cars. Until it's cheaper and/or more convenient for him than gas cars, he won't switch. And until laymen switch, you won't get the economies of scale necessary for a vast charging network. > assuming the…

The Tesla site shows the locations. They look to have one in each city, but its not as big of an issue as your make out. The only need to make them convenient for travelers. Locals can always charge at home. That's something you can't do with a gas-powered car.

Re: Tesla reveals Supercharger network, Free Fill Ups

#69

Post by w1ntermute »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #61
w1ntermute wrote: post #51

Come on, 30 minutes for a charge that'll get you just 180 miles? I just checked the 2012 Honda Civic specs[0], you can fill up with 13.2 gallons in 2 or 3 minutes, and that'll get you 13.2*32 mpg combined = 422 miles. There's no way this is gonna work unless the charging process is much faster or they swap batteries instead. 0: http://www.edmunds.com/honda/civic/2012/road-test-specs.html

Get that Honda Civic then; I'm going to hold onto my Model S reservation. I have to drive more than 180 miles in a day? Oh no! I'll have to rent a car from Enterprise or Zipcar! Fueleconomy.gov says it costs $3,550/year to fuel my 2008 Infiniti G37 (at $4.75/gal, premium), and $400/year to fuel my Model S (assuming 15K miles/year). That's a savings of over $15750 over 5 years (assuming the price of petroleum-based fu…

> Fueleconomy.gov says it costs $3,550/year to fuel my 2008 Infiniti G37 (at $4.75/gal, premium), and $400/year to fuel my Model S (assuming 15K miles/year). That's a savings of over $15750 over 5 years (assuming the price of petroleum-based fuels doesn't go up, which it will).

Don't be absurd. Getting either an Infiniti or a Model S makes absolutely no sense if you're interested in saving money. The base model MSRP for a 2013 G37 is $36,900, and for the Model S it's $49,900. The MSRP for a base Civic Sedan? $15,955. This debate was never about what's the most economic option.

Re: Tesla reveals Supercharger network, Free Fill Ups

#70

Post by w1ntermute »

underwater wrote: post #68
w1ntermute wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you comparing charging stats unironically and saying it's a dealbreaker if it's not just as good as the incumbent in this category? Yes, I can guarantee you that the layman doesn't give two shits about electric cars. Until it's cheaper and/or more convenient for him than gas cars, he won't switch. And until laymen switch, you won't get the economies of scale necessary for a vast charging network. > assuming the…

The Tesla site shows the locations. They look to have one in each city, but its not as big of an issue as your make out. The only need to make them convenient for travelers. Locals can always charge at home. That's something you can't do with a gas-powered car.

> Locals can always charge at home.

In which case you're just pushing the negative environmental effects to the power plant.

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