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Public Montessori programs strengthen learning outcomes at lower costs: study

phys.org

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Re: Public Montessori programs strengthen learning outcomes at lower costs: study

#61

Post by inglor_cz »

sgc wrote: post #53
jrh3 wrote: post #42

I went to a Montessori school from pre-K through 6th grade. I totally agree with this article. It is not easy to make this work on a public school-sized scale. The problem in education is not funding. We were a private school, but we made it work on a shoestring.

The biggest problem with public school is school size and class size. The last century of school building built prison-like megaliths, when it should have built a much more distributed system. Class sizes under 20 and schools under 120 at least through middle school would raise a far less pathologically self-centered society. But most people who vote/make decisions would have to care more deeply, so I think it's a no…

"Class sizes under 20 and schools under 120 at least through middle school would raise a far less pathologically self-centered society."

This is a big if. Until the 1990s, class sizes routinely exceeded 30 and school sizes 500 in former Czechoslovakia, but I wouldn't call us "pathologically self-centered society".

As for self-centeredness, shrinking family size might be the true reason. Only children tend to be a lot more pampered than kids who were born into a family of six. In China, they are called "Little Emperors".

Re: Public Montessori programs strengthen learning outcomes at lower costs: study

#62

Post by bdangubic »

inglor_cz wrote: post #61
sgc wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest problem with public school is school size and class size. The last century of school building built prison-like megaliths, when it should have built a much more distributed system. Class sizes under 20 and schools under 120 at least through middle school would raise a far less pathologically self-centered society. But most people who vote/make decisions would have to care more deeply, so I think it's a no…

"Class sizes under 20 and schools under 120 at least through middle school would raise a far less pathologically self-centered society." This is a big if. Until the 1990s, class sizes routinely exceeded 30 and school sizes 500 in former Czechoslovakia, but I wouldn't call us "pathologically self-centered society". As for self-centeredness, shrinking family size might be the true reason. Only children tend to be a lot…

> As for self-centeredness, shrinking family size might be the true reason. Only children tend to be a lot more pampered than kids who were born into a family of six.

to quote @inglor_cz - this is big if… you are arguing against generalization in your first paragraph and then you are proceeding to generalize… I am only child and my daughter is too and neither of us (especially me) have been pampered

Re: Public Montessori programs strengthen learning outcomes at lower costs: study

#63

Post by spicyusername »

obscurette wrote: post #57

Most of public schools over the world struggle with much more basic problems than methods or programs. The most important thing IMHO is a stable environment. You can use the very best methods and programs, but if teachers change frequently, like it become more and more a norm in public schools, all these don't matter much really.

Or even more basic, if the parents don't have the time or temperament to properly participate in parenting, then the teachers or the school aren't really going to matter either.

Re: Public Montessori programs strengthen learning outcomes at lower costs: study

#64

Post by zzleeper »

sushp wrote: post #45
WillAdams wrote: post #32

My children attended Montessori schools, and it really is a wonderful system. I would really like to see an extension of this learning method up through high school --- the closest thing I'm aware of was a school I attended in Mississippi for a couple of years --- classes were divided between academic and social, social classes (homeroom, phys ed, social studies, &c.) were attended at one's age, while academic classe…

I had a good impression of "Montessori" from hearing that Larry/Sergey/Bezos went to one. When I put my kid in it at 3 years old, he hated it. As I looked into it more, it seems to me that it is actually very rigid, with kids being able to play with just a small set of toys that don't really exercise their creativity, and with little opportunity for group play. We switched him to a Reggio Emilia school where the kids…

Same here. My three-year old loved maps and we always played with them (making map of her room, etc etc)

We enrolled her at the local Montessori and she rushed to the map section but was told she is forbidden from using it until she takes the lesson on that or whatever is called. That lesson was 2-3 months away, and meanwhile all other kids were able to play with the maps.

This, combined with other rigidities and a crazy schedule totally unsuited for working parents (9-1pm wtf) made it impossible. After struggling a lot for two months, she went back to her old daycare and was very happy there, and is now at her elementary school now

Re: Public Montessori programs strengthen learning outcomes at lower costs: study

#65

Post by bfeynman »

sushp wrote: post #45
WillAdams wrote: post #32

My children attended Montessori schools, and it really is a wonderful system. I would really like to see an extension of this learning method up through high school --- the closest thing I'm aware of was a school I attended in Mississippi for a couple of years --- classes were divided between academic and social, social classes (homeroom, phys ed, social studies, &c.) were attended at one's age, while academic classe…

I had a good impression of "Montessori" from hearing that Larry/Sergey/Bezos went to one. When I put my kid in it at 3 years old, he hated it. As I looked into it more, it seems to me that it is actually very rigid, with kids being able to play with just a small set of toys that don't really exercise their creativity, and with little opportunity for group play. We switched him to a Reggio Emilia school where the kids…

Montessori is just an educational framework, I have no idea where you draw broad conclusion that the one or two things you looked at deemed it be "rigid" or little opportunity... Sounds like a random bad apple. There's a correlation between gifted children and montessori because it allows them to develop at their own pace which is often faster than that of traditional classrooms etc, it's not for everyone.

Re: Public Montessori programs strengthen learning outcomes at lower costs: study

#66

Post by em-bee »

PakG1 wrote: post #58
_yb2s wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are different “factions” and accreditation organizations in Montessori. Some are more liberal and others are authoritarian and rigid. Not all Montessori schools are like you describe, but some certainly are.

I suppose this means that Montessori is not a single movement, but multiple movements all claiming to be the proper one.

most improper ones are simply capitalizing on the name recognition, some may have the idealism but fail in the implementation. if you do enough research it is pretty clear that only AMI accredited teachers implement the original method as designed by maria montessori. AMS comes close. and everyone else never received any form of montessori training at all.

(disclaimer: my wife got accredited by AMI)

Re: Public Montessori programs strengthen learning outcomes at lower costs: study

#67

Post by foxglacier »

sushp wrote: post #45
WillAdams wrote: post #32

My children attended Montessori schools, and it really is a wonderful system. I would really like to see an extension of this learning method up through high school --- the closest thing I'm aware of was a school I attended in Mississippi for a couple of years --- classes were divided between academic and social, social classes (homeroom, phys ed, social studies, &c.) were attended at one's age, while academic classe…

I had a good impression of "Montessori" from hearing that Larry/Sergey/Bezos went to one. When I put my kid in it at 3 years old, he hated it. As I looked into it more, it seems to me that it is actually very rigid, with kids being able to play with just a small set of toys that don't really exercise their creativity, and with little opportunity for group play. We switched him to a Reggio Emilia school where the kids…

I had the exact same experience except my child is still there. No free play, very little time outdoors, very little interaction with classmates, no creativity allowed. Unhappy child who regularly doesn't want to go. We try to give her outdoor play with friends after preschool to make up for it.

Re: Public Montessori programs strengthen learning outcomes at lower costs: study

#68

Post by foxglacier »

Eridrus wrote: post #41
PiRho3141 wrote: post #27

I send my child to a private Montessori school. With that said, there's no denying that sending your child to a private Montessori school is similar to parents who buy books in learning to parent are typically better parents not because they read the books but because they care enough to buy the books. If you care enough to send your child to a Montessori school, the parent is invested in the child's success and I th…

Ok, but this was an RCT, so enrollment was randomized after people self selected into this experiment.

It also had an obvious and unhelpful result. Of course kids who spend all day learning will know that stuff better than kids who don't. What really matters is long term life outcomes.

Rudolf Steiner would say all that early learning is harmful and they should have been playing and imagining spiritual things.

Re: Public Montessori programs strengthen learning outcomes at lower costs: study

#69

Post by rahimnathwani »

stdbrouw wrote: post #60
rahimnathwani wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's taken care of in the study design. The population was all kids who applied to the lottery. And the treatment group wasn't those who actually attended the Montessori school, but those who were offered a place due to the lottery. So I don't see how special needs would bias the results. If the lottery excludes those with special needs (either by design or due to self-selection) then there's no bias between contro…

Yeah, the intention to treat design is a particularly nice touch, not so common outside of biostatistics. They also compare the full cost of Montessori vs. plain ol', not the cost to the state, which could otherwise have given the Montessori schools (which are in wealthier neighborhoods on average) an unfair advantage if they have a lot of parents chipping in with donations and help. I've skimmed through the methods…

  I've skimmed through the methods section and it does seem like they've gone to great lengths to allow for a fair comparison. That doesn't necessarily mean the result will extrapolate
Yes, I had exactly the same reaction. They appear to be presenting their work honestly, completely and clearly, so that other people have enough information to draw their own conclusions.

Re: Public Montessori programs strengthen learning outcomes at lower costs: study

#70

Post by em-bee »

adolph wrote: post #55
sushp wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a good impression of "Montessori" from hearing that Larry/Sergey/Bezos went to one. When I put my kid in it at 3 years old, he hated it. As I looked into it more, it seems to me that it is actually very rigid, with kids being able to play with just a small set of toys that don't really exercise their creativity, and with little opportunity for group play. We switched him to a Reggio Emilia school where the kids…

> it is actually very rigid, with kids being able to play with just a small set of toys that don't really exercise their creativity There exist various implementations of Montessori. AMI was founded by Dr. Montessori [0] and certifies schools so that parents can have some assurance of adherence to a standard. The many materials in a Montessori classroom, including things that look like a dollhouse, don't exist for un…

Montessori classroom's weakness is that there is only one guide for all subjects as opposed to a traditional school's subject-specific teachers

which tradition is that? in my country subject-specific teachers don't appear until middle school. so that's a rather moot point for kindergarten and primary school.

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