61–70 of 184 posts
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it depends completely on what you put in "modern features"
Pattern matching, usable abstractions, non null types, tagged unions or w/e enums are, build tools etc
If you like rust, use rust. It's very likely the best rust
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It looks like the API of Alloy was at least designed in such a way that can somewhat easily change the GC implementation out down the line and I really hope they do cause Boehm GC and conservative GC in general is much too slow compared to state of the art precise GCs.
It's not an implementation thing. It's fundamental. A GC can't move anything it finds in a conservative root. You can build partly precise hybrid GCs (I've built a few) but the mere possibility of conservative roots complicates implementation and limits compaction potential. If, OTOH, Alloy is handle based, then maybe there's hope. Still a weird choice to use Rust this way.
I don't think Rust's design in this regard is ideal, but then again what language is perfect? I designed languages for a long while and made far more, and much more egregious, mistakes! FWIW, I have written up my general thoughts on static integer types, because it's a surprisingly twisty subject for new languages https://tratt.net/laurie/blog/2021/static_integer_types.html
I think the pursuit of safety is a good goal and I could see myself opting into garbage collections for certain tasks.
Before making criticisms that Garbage Collection "defeats the point" of Rust, it's important to consider that Rust has many other strengths: - Rust has no overhead from a "framework" - Rust programs start up quickly - The rust ecosystem makes it very easy to compile a command-line tool without lots of fluff - The strict nature of the language helps guide the programmer to write bug-free code. In short: There's a lot…
> Having acknowledged that pointers can be 'disguised' as integers, it is then inevitable that Alloy must be a conservative GC C# / dotnet don't have this issue. The few times I've needed a raw pointer to an object, first I had to pin it, and then I had to make sure that I kept a live reference to the object while native code had its pointer. This is "easier done than said" because most of the time it's passing strin…
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Hello world in java is pretty fast. Not rust fast but a lot faster than you'd expect. Java starting slowly is mostly from all the cruft in the typical java app, with springboot, dependency injection frameworks, registries etc. You don't have to have those, it's just that most java devs use them and can't conceive of a world of low dependencies Still not great for commandline apps, but java itself is much better than…
Testing on my machine, Hello World in java (openjdk 21) takes about 30ms. In contrast, "time" reports that rust takes 1ms, which is the limit of it's precision. Python does Hello World in just 8ms, despite not having a separate AOT compilation step. The general guidance I've seen for interaction is that things start to feel laggy at 100ms; so 30ms isn't a dealbreaker, but throwing a third of your time budget at the b…
No has seemed to call it out yet but swift uses a form of garbage collection but remains relatively fast. I was against this at first but the more I think about it, I think it has real potential to make lots of hard problems with ownership easier to solve. I think the next big step or perhaps an alternative would be to make changes to restrictions in unsafe rust. I think the pursuit of safety is a good goal and I cou…
Slows down every access to objects as reference counts must be maintained
Something weird that I never bothered with to enable circular references
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Project Valhalla will also specialise generics for value types. When you say, "it's hard to bolt on", the challenge isn't technical, but how to do this in a way that adds minimal language complexity (i.e. less than in other languages with explicit "boxed" and "inlined" values). Ideally, this should be done in a way that tells the compiler know which types can be inlined (e.g. they don't require identity) and then let…
Maybe I picked the wrong wording--I don't mean to diminish the ambitions or scope of Valhalla--but I definitely think the decision to eschew value types at the start has immense bearing on the difficulty of adding them now. Java's major competitors, C# and Go, both have had value types since day one and reified generics since they gained generics; this hasn't posed any major problems to either language (with the form…
Yes (well, structs; not really value types), but at a significant cost to FFI and/or GC and/or user-mode threads (due to pointers into the stack and/or middle of objects). Java would not have implemented value types in this way, and doing it the way we want to would have been equally tricky had it been done in Java 1.0. Reified generics also come at a high price, that of baking the language's variance strategy into the ABI (or VM, if you want). However, value types will be invariant (or possibly extensible in some different way), so it would be possible to specialise generics for them without necessarily baking the Java language's variance model into the JVM (as the C# variance model is baked into the CLR).
Also, C# and Go didn't have as much of a choice, as their optimising compilers and GCs aren't as sophisticated as Java's (e.g. Java doesn't actually allocate every `new` object on the heap). Java has long tried to keep the language as simple as possible, and have very advanced compilers and GCs.
> If the technical side isn't that hard, I'd have expected the JVM to have implemented value types already, making it available to other less conservative languages like Kotlin, while work on smoothly integrating it in Java took as long as needed
First, that's not how we do things. Users of all alternative Java Platform languages (aka alternative JVM languages) combined make up less than 10% of all Java platform users. We work on the language, VM, and standard library all together (this isn't the approach taken by .NET, BTW). We did deliver invokedynamic before it was used by the Java language, but 1. that was after we knew how the language would use it, and 2. that was at a time when the JDK's release model was much less flexible.
Second, even if we wanted to work in this way, it wouldn't have mattered here. Other Java Platform languages don't just use the JVM. They make extensive use of the standard library and observability tooling. Until those are modified to account for value types, just a JVM change would be of little use to those languages. The JVM comprises maybe 25% of the JDK, while Kotlin, for example, makes use of over 95% of the JDK.
Anyway, Project Valhalla has taken a very long time, but it's making good progress, and we hope to deliver some of its pieces soon enough.
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Oh no, I'm directly criticizing C/C++/Java/C#: The heavyweight framework (and startup cost) that comes with Java and C# makes them challenging for widely-adopted lightweight command-line tools. (Although I love C# as a language, I find the Rust toolchain much simpler and easier to work with than modern dotnet.) Building C (and C++) is often a nightmare.
> The heavyweight framework Do you mean the VM/runtime? If so, you might be able to eliminate that with an AOT build. > I find the Rust toolchain much simpler and easier to work with than modern dotnet What part of the toolchain? I find them pretty similar with the only difference being the way you install them (with dotnet coming from a distro package and Rust from rustup)
1) dynamic loading of jar files
2) reflection
Number 1 allows you to load arbitrary jar files with code and execute them. Number 2 allows you to programmatically introspect existing code and then execute logic like "Find me all Foo sub classes and create an instance of those and return the list of those objects". You can do that at any time but a lot of that kind of stuff happens at startup. That involves parsing, loading and introspecting thousands of class files in jar files that need to be opened and decompressed.
Most of "Java is slow" is basically programs loading a lot of stuff at startup, and then using reflection to look for code to execute. You don't have to do those things. But a lot of popular web frameworks like Spring do. A lot of that stuff is actually remarkably quick considering what it is doing. You'd struggle to do this in many other languages. Or at all because many languages don't have reflection. If you profile it, there are millions of calls happening in the first couple of seconds. It's taking time yes. But that code has also been heavily optimized over the years. Dismissing what that does as "java is slow" and X is fast is usually a bit of an apples and oranges discussion.
With Spring Boot, there are dozens of libraries that self initialize if you simply add the dependency or the right configuration to your project. We can argue about whether that's nice or not; I'm leaning to no. But it's a neat feature. I'm more into lighter weight frameworks these days. Ktor server is pretty nice, for example. It starts pretty quickly because it doesn't do a whole lot on startup.
Loading a tiny garbage collector library on startup isn't a big deal. It will add a few microseconds to your startup time maybe. Probably not milliseconds. Kotlin has a nice native compiler. If you compile hello world with it it's a few hundred kilobytes for a self contained binary with the program, runtime, and the garbage collection. It's not a great garbage collector. For memory intensive stuff you are better off using the JVM. But if that's not a concern, it will do the job.
Asyc/await really desperately needs a garbage collector. (See this talk from Rustconf 2025: https://youtu.be/zrv5Cy1R7r4?si=lfTGLdJOGw81bvpu and this blog:https://rfd.shared.oxide.computer/rfd/400)
Rust that uses standard techniques for asynchronous code, or is synchronous, does not. Async/await sucks all the oxygen from asynchronous Rust
Async/await Rust is a different language, probably more popular, and worth pursuing (for somebody, not me) it already has a runtime and the dreadful hacks like (pin)[https://doc.rust-lang.org/std/pin/index.html] that are due to the lack of a garbage collector
What a good idea