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Android's sideloading limits are its most anti-consumer move

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Re: Android's sideloading limits are its most anti-consumer move

#61
post #8
post #2

Installing any app I want outside the Play Store was the primary reason I decided to go with Android, despite most of the people I know using iPhones. If I can't do this anymore, I may as well switch and be able to use iMessage and FaceTime with them.

Same, I'm tempted to call android just a shittier iPhone now

What part of cheaper, better, and open source is shittier exactly?

Re: Android's sideloading limits are its most anti-consumer move

#62
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when in reality it is what we have been able to do on our computers since forever You do realise that's been changing right? Slowly of course, there's no single villain that James Bond could take down, or that a charistmatic leader could get elected could change. The oil tanker has been moving in that direction for decades. There are legions defending the right to run your own software, but it's a continual war of…

If you want a real blackpill (I think this is the right word), consider the famous Cathedral and the Bazaar . I recently had a realization: I can name Cathedrals, that are 800 years old, and still standing. I can't name a single Bazaar stall more than 50 years old around any Cathedral that's still standing. The Cathedral's builders no doubt bought countless stone and food from the Bazaar, making the Bazaar very usefu…

I fail to see the link, businesses come and go. Their software dies with them.

Re: Android's sideloading limits are its most anti-consumer move

#63
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want a real blackpill (I think this is the right word), consider the famous Cathedral and the Bazaar . I recently had a realization: I can name Cathedrals, that are 800 years old, and still standing. I can't name a single Bazaar stall more than 50 years old around any Cathedral that's still standing. The Cathedral's builders no doubt bought countless stone and food from the Bazaar, making the Bazaar very usefu…

I fail to see the link, businesses come and go. Their software dies with them.

Businesses die. Cathedrals don't. IBM is 114 years old. Microsoft is 50. Google is 27. Disney is 101. Nintendo is 136 (they'll outlive Steam and the next nuclear war at this rate). The COBOL running banks is 65 years old. Windows NT architecture is 32. The platforms become infrastructure, too embedded to replace.

How many bazaar projects from even 10 years ago are still maintained? Go through GitHub's trending repos from 2015. Most are abandoned. The successes transform - GitLab, Linux, Kubernetes, more Cathedral than Bazaar.

Re: Android's sideloading limits are its most anti-consumer move

#64
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Google provides a permanent mechanism to disable this in developer settings, then this devolves to an inconvenience. The setting to allow unsigned apps could be per appstore tracked by an on-device sqlite database, so a badly-behaving app will be known by its installer.

Have you read anything about this? What you are proposing is exactly what is being disabled.

Let's say that Google implements this restriction, but allows F-Droid a permanent permission to disable it for apps installed through their store.

Then there is both increased protection and accountability.

Re: Android's sideloading limits are its most anti-consumer move

#65
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when in reality it is what we have been able to do on our computers since forever You do realise that's been changing right? Slowly of course, there's no single villain that James Bond could take down, or that a charistmatic leader could get elected could change. The oil tanker has been moving in that direction for decades. There are legions defending the right to run your own software, but it's a continual war of…

If you want a real blackpill (I think this is the right word), consider the famous Cathedral and the Bazaar . I recently had a realization: I can name Cathedrals, that are 800 years old, and still standing. I can't name a single Bazaar stall more than 50 years old around any Cathedral that's still standing. The Cathedral's builders no doubt bought countless stone and food from the Bazaar, making the Bazaar very usefu…

There are definitely bazaars which have a very old history. Being that the word "bazaar" has middle-eastern origins it feels appropriate to highlight middle eastern bazaars. Al-Madina Souq in Aleppo is one such bazaar with quite a few shops/stalls/"souqs" dating back to the 1300's or 1400's, such as Khan al-Qadi (est. 1450). Khan el-Khalili in Cairo has its economic marketplace origins rooted in the 1100's-1300's.

Re: Android's sideloading limits are its most anti-consumer move

#66
post #7
post #2

Installing any app I want outside the Play Store was the primary reason I decided to go with Android, despite most of the people I know using iPhones. If I can't do this anymore, I may as well switch and be able to use iMessage and FaceTime with them.

You can still install apps outside the play store, but the developer does need to verify their signing information. Effectively this means that any app you install must have a paper trail to the originating developer, even if its not on the app store. On one hand, I can see the need for this to track down virus creators, but on the other, it provides Google transparency and control over side loaded app. It IS a conce…

It also makes it easy for google to blacklist a developer, if for example the trump administration don’t like them (the same way apple removing apps documenting ICE).

Re: Android's sideloading limits are its most anti-consumer move

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want a real blackpill (I think this is the right word), consider the famous Cathedral and the Bazaar . I recently had a realization: I can name Cathedrals, that are 800 years old, and still standing. I can't name a single Bazaar stall more than 50 years old around any Cathedral that's still standing. The Cathedral's builders no doubt bought countless stone and food from the Bazaar, making the Bazaar very usefu…

There are definitely bazaars which have a very old history. Being that the word "bazaar" has middle-eastern origins it feels appropriate to highlight middle eastern bazaars. Al-Madina Souq in Aleppo is one such bazaar with quite a few shops/stalls/"souqs" dating back to the 1300's or 1400's, such as Khan al-Qadi (est. 1450). Khan el-Khalili in Cairo has its economic marketplace origins rooted in the 1100's-1300's.

Name a single bazaar vendor that's still going more than 50 years in any of them. The bazaar as an institution remains, as it does today, but there's no permanence with a bazaar, just as open-source will never have a permanent victory without becoming a cathedral. Bazaars persist through constant replacement, churn, not victory.

Windows NT will be with us longer than systemd and flatpak.

Re: Android's sideloading limits are its most anti-consumer move

#68

If you want to install software on your Microsoft Windows computer, it has to be signed by a verified developer, otherwise you get an overridable warning that the developer cannot be verified, the software may contain malware etc. If you want to install software on you MacOS machine, the same thing applies. It must come from a verified developer with an apple account, otherwise you get a warning and must jump through…

There is a world of difference between "the OS throws up a bunch of warnings" and "the OS won't let you run unsigned software"

But Apple will change those "warnings" into straight-up lies, and fail to mention the user can override them, and hide those overrides in non-discoverable places:

Whenever I try to open an unverified app, this popup comes up saying "[AppName] Not Opened" "Apple could not verify [AppName] is free of malware that may harm your Mac or compromise your privacy." Then there's only two options to either press "Done" or "Move to Trash." - https://old.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/1ekv55h/cant_right_cli...

Your only option is to click on OK button, which won’t open the app. So how do you do it? - http://www.peter-cohen.com/2016/12/how-to-open-a-mac-app-fro...

Apple knowingly falsely claiming unsigned apps are "damaged": https://appletoolbox.com/app-is-damaged-cannot-be-opened-mac...

Re: Android's sideloading limits are its most anti-consumer move

#69

As with manifest v3, Google is once again misusing their position as a source of open standards to benefit their adware business. Hopefully the EU fines them once again. A weird hill to choose to die on given that in practice it's not really a meaningful percentage of people that are using adblockers and the negative PR they get from these oversteps is massive.

Didnt EU rule that it was OK for Apple to do, and Google is just just mirroring that?

Re: Android's sideloading limits are its most anti-consumer move

#70

This is the beginning of the end of Android. Google have over-reached. It is unacceptable to software developers to be unable to install software on their own phones, and this will lead to a successor to Android. It will take time, but it will now happen.

> beginning of the end of Android.

You underestimate how much money & effort it takes to make an operating system.

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