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Regarding the Compact

president.mit.edu

61–70 of 203 posts

Re: Regarding the Compact

#61
post #18

In a way, the overreach in the compact made this an obvious (though not easy) decision. Obviously, an independent university cannot agree to government-mandated pricing or censorship of faculty members. Similarly, government intrusion into grading practices and proactively threatening to use "lawful force" against minors are immediately off the table. That's all aside from the practicality of ongoing assessment, whic…

> an independent university

MIT is taking (lots of) money from federal government. That makes them dependent on the government and government is within its right to attach strings to the money.

MIT is free to not do what the government wants but then government is free to stop giving them (our) money.

Furthermore, MIT, like any other organization, must obey state and federal laws.

For example, there's a law that you cannot discriminate in hiring based on sex or religion. If IBM, MIT or a barber shop discriminates it's the role of the government to enforce the law and make them stop. The easy way is sending them a letter and asking. The hard way is to sue them in federal court.

Re: Regarding the Compact

#62

This seems like a reasonable response by MIT. I’m struggling to understand where the core disagreement lies though. Would someone who is opposed to this “compact” care to explain their view? I’m not interested in baseless name-calling (“fascist” etc) but I am interested in cogent reasoning. I didn’t read the compact itself, but I did read the wikipedia article about it, and it seems to be a very positive set of crite…

Careful not to fall into the "People's Democratic Republic" trap: the way something is described and its purported aims are not at all the same as its actual effects (and, often, not even its intended ones). Politics is, in many cases, the art of selling you a box of spoons with "forks" printed on the label.

Instead of asking "does this agreement sound nice?", ask what power it gives, to whom, and what might they want to do with it.

Some prompts to spark a cogent reasoning process:

> Signatories commit themselves to [...] transforming or abolishing institutional units that purposefully punish, belittle, and even spark violence against conservative ideas

What "institutional units" might this mean? How are they identified? Who identifies them? What is the threshold for belittling conservative ideas that might trigger the "transforming or abolishing" remedy?

> Universities shall be responsible for ensuring that they do not knowingly: (1) permit actions by the university, university employees, university students, or individuals external to the university community to delay or disrupt class instruction or disrupt libraries or other traditional study locations [...] signatories commit to using lawful force if necessary to prevent these violations

What do "actions by" "university students" to "delay or disrupt class instruction" refer to? What kinds of disruptive action might the people writing this document be so concerned about that they would ask universities to "commit to using lawful force" to prevent? What sort of scenario is being envisaged here?

> Institutions commit to defining and otherwise interpreting "male," "female," "woman," and "man" according to reproductive function and biological processes.

Doesn't it seem oddly specific to assert a definition like this? Why can't a university decide for itself? How does this assertion square with "maintaining a vibrant marketplace of ideas" and the "empirical assessment of a broad spectrum of viewpoints"? Why only this definition and no others?

I could go on, but hopefully you get the picture. It's an important skill to practice critically reading a document the same way you might critically audit code. Don't ask what it seems like it does, ask what it might allow someone to do.

Re: Regarding the Compact

#63
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My main objections are to the following points: - Specifically calling out protecting "conservative ideas" in their section on creating an "intellectually open campus environment". This is a dog whistle that makes it patently clear which viewpoints will be protected, and which won't. See what happened to Mahmoud Khalil for a recent example of how this will work in practice. - Preventing admissions of foreign students…

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> No, the expectation is that people will respect boundaries and voluntarily stay out of the single-sex spaces they have no right to be in.

So currently, these people have the right to be in these spaces (whether or not you disagree that they should, legally, they do), the expectation would, I assume, be that people will respect boundaries and not accost people based on assumptions about their genitals. And yet as GP said:

> There are plenty of videos online of cisgender people being accosted in the bathroom that aligns with their biological sex simply because other people _assume_ based on their appearance that they are trans.

Why would we expect people who are currently accosting people who are in the right place to respect them more when there is additional legal justification to harass them?

Perhaps phrased differently: would you support legal repercussions for someone who falsely or incorrectly reports someone as using an "incorrect" bathroom? If the assumption is that everyone is following the boundaries of these spaces, then breaking that assumption is, bad faith and grounds for a complaint of harassment. You'd agree?

Re: Regarding the Compact

#64
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It is not. Trans people, frequently, look like the opposite sex. Hence there can be no reasonable enforcement of this policy. Cis people, frequently, look like transgender individuals of their own gender. Hence they are liable to receive harassment by any attempt to enforce such a policy. Harassing people, cis and trans, merely trying to use the bathroom in peace, is a far greater imposition than merely existing in t…

Nonetheless, even in cases where someone has managed to somewhat disguise themselves as the opposite sex - or think they have done so - they will still be expected to respect boundaries, and stay out of spaces designated for the opposite sex.

Re: Regarding the Compact

#65
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[dead]

> No, the expectation is that people will respect boundaries and voluntarily stay out of the single-sex spaces they have no right to be in. So currently, these people have the right to be in these spaces (whether or not you disagree that they should , legally, they do ), the expectation would, I assume, be that people will respect boundaries and not accost people based on assumptions about their genitals. And yet as…

If the policy of MIT or any other institution states that certain spaces are designated as single-sex only, then no, people of the opposite sex do not have the right to use these spaces.

I don't expect people to have a problem with understanding this, in practice. It's really not that difficult to understand what sex you are and where you're allowed to be. Children learn this quite early on.

(Edit: My account is now rate-limited because of downvotes, so I can't reply to any responses. However I would like to point out that if MIT is currently allowing staff and students to use single-sex spaces that are designated for the opposite sex, this is very likely to be a Title IX violation. Unfortunately, sexism is rife in institutions of higher education, and MIT is no exception.)

Re: Regarding the Compact

#66
post #61
post #18

In a way, the overreach in the compact made this an obvious (though not easy) decision. Obviously, an independent university cannot agree to government-mandated pricing or censorship of faculty members. Similarly, government intrusion into grading practices and proactively threatening to use "lawful force" against minors are immediately off the table. That's all aside from the practicality of ongoing assessment, whic…

> an independent university MIT is taking (lots of) money from federal government. That makes them dependent on the government and government is within its right to attach strings to the money. MIT is free to not do what the government wants but then government is free to stop giving them (our) money. Furthermore, MIT, like any other organization, must obey state and federal laws. For example, there's a law that you…

I mean, you're obviously right about this all. Which is why it's an easy decision. MIT chooses independence and so cannot agree to these terms.

Separately, there is the question of whether it is in the best interest of the US to part ways with organizations such as MIT.

> MIT is taking (lots of) money from federal government

Surely nobody is naive enough to think the federal government is giving money to institutions like MIT with no expectation of reciprocal benefit?

MIT is (was?) full of DoD asset tags to indicate which equipment was paid for by DoD grants. So another way of stating your point is the federal government is investing in programs at MIT to shape which basic research gets done so that it aligns with the best interest of the United States.

(A prior iteration of conservativism would have recognized outsourcing to MIT as a capital-light way of accomplishing a set of policy goals. The alternative being to spin up the whole apparatus in-house without cost sharing. Left to their own devices, engineering students are not likely to discover and research problems that are immediately germane to DoD.)

It is possible to be independent while also accepting grants from the USG. There's no contradiction there. The point of independence is that the Institute gets to determine how it runs its affairs. This Compact is an attempt to move that decision-making process to the White House. Maintaining independence in this environment therefore means abandoning federal research funding.

Re: Regarding the Compact

#68

From MIT's financials ( https://facts.mit.edu/operating-financials/ ): Operating Revenue: $5.07B, out of which - Federal funding (sponsored support): $2.30B Operating Costs: $4.78B, out of which - Sponsored research expenditure: $2.10B Additionally, they seem to have $24.57B worth of endowed funds and get gifts and pledges of net ~$0.6B every year. Looks like they can wane off their dependence on federal funding if o…

In theory they could but in practice they don't want to. No company wants to loose $2B a year of free money.

Suddenly loosing 45% of revenues would be devastating.

And yes, MIT is a company. They have a CEO (under a different name), a board of directors, thousands of employees and they provide a service for a fee.

No one that works for MIT wants to loose that money. Not CEO, not board of directors, not employees.

Maybe they'll put ideology first and $2B second but I doubt it.

Re: Regarding the Compact

#69

Remember, fascism is not an ideology or philosophical idea. It is a system of government. Gaining control of academia is a core part of this system. I applaud MIT for standing up to this. I hope the other universities involved also resist. We'll see.

[flagged]

man the fascist attractor works every time, doesn't it?

Re: Regarding the Compact

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

No, the 2025 Republican party is definitely fascist. Wikipedia: "Fascism is characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived interest of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy" - Dictatorial leader - President Trump tries to push th…

I like that your ideological counterparts have made the exact same statements about every administration ever.

Your post does not carry weight just because it is heavy.

When all you have is claims of fascism, everything is a nail.

Despite yours or my agreement on the topic of the day, this admin has pushed more power back to states than any in your lifetime. Those sneaky fascists, always giving up power…

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