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I played 1k hands of online poker and built a web app with Cursor AI

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Re: I played 1k hands of online poker and built a web app with Cursor AI

#61

Post by bluecheese452 »

recursive wrote: post #52
albatrossjr wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure there is some, but it's standard practice to keep at database of all your hands. I've sanity checked the winning regs (at my stakes) and they all make mistakes. I think it helps that in the US all the sites are geography based. It makes it harder and less financially viable to run a bot ring.

I don't know what a reg is but I would assume the first thing you do after you get your bot working is to add some imperfect play so that you don't get banned by the most trivial heuristics.

Reg means regular, ie someone who plays a lot. Usually but not always it implies someone who is a winning or at least attempting to be a winning player

Re: I played 1k hands of online poker and built a web app with Cursor AI

#62

Post by vmg12 »

monero-xmr wrote: post #59
CobrastanJorji wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but it's worse than you'd think, from what I understand. The bots will try to get more than one seat at a table and share information, so that it's even MORE unfair.

Cash games in person are pretty bad too. Casinos need to make money and they only get it off rake, so they have lately turned a blind eye to collusion. The only safe poker (except among friends) is tournaments, in person, so they randomize the tables properly.

Collusion in live poker games in casinos is not a widespread problem. There is a problem with poker where people always think they are being cheated every time they lose. If you are playing in a casino in person it is very unlikely you are being cheated. If you are playing in a regulated website online that verifies the identities of the customers it is also unlikely you are being cheated.

The vast majority of people that play poker absolutely suck and think they are being cheated because they lose money very quickly. Most bad poker players would literally be better off playing blackjack.

Re: I played 1k hands of online poker and built a web app with Cursor AI

#63

Post by vmg12 »

bluecheese452 wrote: post #60
vmg12 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Online poker is very much beatable. Poker isn't solved in the same way chess is. It also depends on the site and the rake. Some unregulated sites don't do KYC so collusion is possible.

It is for most variants of 2 player poker. Multiway still too difficult to solve.

What I meant by "poker isn't solved the same way chess is" is that if you take a solver and follow all the actions it tells you are "best" you will not make the most money. It isn't like stockfish where by using solver outputs you will automatically make more money than the best pros in the world. 99% of poker is understanding the unique ways your opponents are bad and adjusting your strategy to profit the most from them. Even the best pros in the world still make mistakes.

Re: I played 1k hands of online poker and built a web app with Cursor AI

#64

Post by bluecheese452 »

danbrooks wrote: post #32
mattmaroon wrote: post #19

I have to imagine bots have made online poker unwinnable by now, right?

I've heard (second-hand) that bots were instrumental in the decline of online poker popularity.

The biggest by far was american laws and regulations. the us uiega law in 2006 and “black friday” ie the doj raiding full tilt and pokerstars in 2011.

This decline was underway a full decade before bots really came on the scene.

Re: I played 1k hands of online poker and built a web app with Cursor AI

#65

Post by jkercher »

algo_trader wrote: post #30
sans_souse wrote: post #2

Cool write up. I played online professionally for the year leading up to the big online shutdown. AMA, always love talking poker strategy.

> I played online professionally for the year leading up to the big online shutdown Are today's online tables simply impossible to win? (bots, collusion) Or are players simply too evenly matched and the house rake/fees kills you anyway?

I don't think so. I don't play nearly as often as I used to, but I still do alright. Though, I usually play tournaments where "game theory optimal" can only get you so far. There is a lot more nuance in a tournament where your style should change as it progresses.

Re: I played 1k hands of online poker and built a web app with Cursor AI

#66

Post by bluecheese452 »

JohnMakin wrote: post #23
mattmaroon wrote: post #19

I have to imagine bots have made online poker unwinnable by now, right?

Not really. Maybe in very specific applications of limit (fixed bet size) hold'em, but no limit texas hold'em, the most popular variant online, is very much unsolved, especially in multi-way pots. There are simply too many variables and strategies involved to calculate quickly enough on the fly. For games like omaha, which uses 4 hole cards, this is even harder. Due to advancement of theory and study and popularity o…

Heads up no limit holdem bots crush the best players in the world even 200bbs deep. So kind of like the same situation as chess. Not solved but not beatable.

Re: I played 1k hands of online poker and built a web app with Cursor AI

#67

Post by vmg12 »

danbrooks wrote: post #32
mattmaroon wrote: post #19

I have to imagine bots have made online poker unwinnable by now, right?

I've heard (second-hand) that bots were instrumental in the decline of online poker popularity.

The problem is specifically with unregulated sites that don't verify the identities of players. The bots aren't so much the problem as the fact that they can collude and share hole cards. But fyi, bots aren't actually good at playing poker outside of specific scenarios vs bad players or in scenarios where the decision tree is not large (ie short stack tournaments where the decisions are pre computed, you can imagine how massive your edge can be when you have a pair of 9s and you know there are already 3 dead aces and your decision is only all in or fold)

Re: I played 1k hands of online poker and built a web app with Cursor AI

#68

Post by bluecheese452 »

algo_trader wrote: post #30
sans_souse wrote: post #2

Cool write up. I played online professionally for the year leading up to the big online shutdown. AMA, always love talking poker strategy.

> I played online professionally for the year leading up to the big online shutdown Are today's online tables simply impossible to win? (bots, collusion) Or are players simply too evenly matched and the house rake/fees kills you anyway?

Pretty much. Not impossible but the effort reward ratio simply isn’t there.

Re: I played 1k hands of online poker and built a web app with Cursor AI

#69

Post by vmg12 »

Waterluvian wrote: post #53
recursive wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what a reg is but I would assume the first thing you do after you get your bot working is to add some imperfect play so that you don't get banned by the most trivial heuristics.

Yeah. Poker isn’t actually hard to play perfectly if you’re writing a bot. The hard part is making it look authentic and not emit any patterns or other signals that could be detected in the data.

> Poker isn’t actually hard to play perfectly if you’re writing a bot

Writing a winning poker bot is not trivial, you are unknowingly spreading false information.

Re: I played 1k hands of online poker and built a web app with Cursor AI

#70

Post by JohnMakin »

bluecheese452 wrote: post #66
JohnMakin wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. Maybe in very specific applications of limit (fixed bet size) hold'em, but no limit texas hold'em, the most popular variant online, is very much unsolved, especially in multi-way pots. There are simply too many variables and strategies involved to calculate quickly enough on the fly. For games like omaha, which uses 4 hole cards, this is even harder. Due to advancement of theory and study and popularity o…

Heads up no limit holdem bots crush the best players in the world even 200bbs deep. So kind of like the same situation as chess. Not solved but not beatable.

There haven’t been any real online NLHE heads up games online in at least a decade. so it’s kind of a moot point. Not sure which bots or players you are referring to - these games don’t exist online in any meaningful volume.
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