German government comes out against Chat Control • Hacker News Board

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#61

Post by pona-a » Tue, Oct 07, 2025, 6:51 PM UTC

ori_b wrote: post #24

ZeroConcerns wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You want the police to regularily intercept and check your signal chats for fraud No, that's not how lawful intercept laws work. I want police to be able to obtain a judicial order to intercept, for a limited time, in cleartext, the (Signal chats, or whatever other encrypted communications) of identified parties reasonably suspected to be involved with criminal activity. ChatControl is not that, and it's one of the…

The law enforcement of which countries, under which sets of laws? Should Thailand be granted access to enforce their lease majeste laws, for example? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A8se-majest%C3%A9_in_Th... Who gets to decide what gets made available to who?

I’ll go a step further: if EU sovereigns claim the right to “lawfully intercept” their citizens' private communications, why shouldn’t every state enjoy the same privilege? Russia, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Uganda will be exemplary custodians of such technology. You have nothing to fear, citizen: their democratic constitutions and impeccable legal codes will protect you.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#62

Post by jasonvorhe » Tue, Oct 07, 2025, 6:52 PM UTC

shevy-java wrote: post #45

This is strange, because not long ago it was Germany (!!) that pushed heavily for mass-sniffing of people. I don't trust this. People should watch very, very carefully what Germany is actually doing next. I would not be surprised if the mass-sniffing comes in a few months when nobody is looking.

Germany will not abandon chat control just like the data perseveration they're so keen on. Europe is preparing for war so they need ways to make opposition more difficult. They're just waiting for the opportune moment where the opposition to these acts won't be as organized or is distracted with something else.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#63

Post by lxgr » Tue, Oct 07, 2025, 6:52 PM UTC

fkyoureadthedoc wrote: post #59

the internet is already dying and social media largely sucks. the whole ass thing is going to be 100% ai driven ads, scams, astroturfing, propaganda, trolls and other fuckery sooner rather than later. just let chat control kill it, fuck it. accelerate to a cyberpunk future of local mesh networks.

What makes you think local mesh networks would remain legal?

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#64

Post by awesome_dude » Tue, Oct 07, 2025, 6:54 PM UTC

mattnewton wrote: post #13

ZeroConcerns wrote: post #3

OK, really hot take here: -ChatControl, as it is currently defined, is not going to happen, because it's absolutely stupid and would make impossible, amongst other things, online banking -Yet, there is a growing and legitimate demand for lawful interception of 'chat' services. I mean, "sure, your bank account got emptied, but we can't look into that because it happened via Signal" just isn't a good look -So, somethin…

I am having a legitimately hard time wrapping my head around not being able to prosecute bank fraud because signal exists. Was it impossible before when criminals would talk in person instead over a recorded telephone?

There is a famous case of US Mafia meeting in rooms, or out on streets to discuss their "business activities" face to face to prevent authorities from surveilling the phone calls.

The reason we know is because authorities were able to place listening devices into the rooms that they were in, or surveil them from other buildings.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#65

Post by lxgr » Tue, Oct 07, 2025, 6:54 PM UTC

fsflover wrote: post #40

layer8 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t expect the general topic to become “finally settled” within our lifetime.

Unless there's a law ensuring our freedoms.

Given that freedom can mean different things even to the same society at different times and in different circumstances, such a law would essentially have to be sentient.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#66

Post by shoubidouwah » Tue, Oct 07, 2025, 6:55 PM UTC

layer8 wrote: post #42

fsflover wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless there's a law ensuring our freedoms.

Laws can be changed, can be reinterpreted, there are no absolutes. What matters is who is in power, and how powers are kept in check. There is no finality to any of that. It’s a constant process of keeping things up, or failing to keep things up.

This is actually one of my own fears for efficient organization at state level and above: - any new technology, any new opportunity either has checks and balances or gets exploited by smart optimizers with no regards for the commons or human flourishing - checks and balances are as you say a constant drain on public attention and resources: you need smart people doing the checking (finite resource), and receptive eyeballs (finite also) - it is thus an optimization problem. attack_surface - check_capacity = societal_explots I worry that the check_capacity term is constrained, but that the attack_surface keeps aexpanding with new technologies. At some point, we started playing whack a mole, frantically jumping from one check to another, and we're holding the fray stochastically. but at some point it's going to become extremely adversarial.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#67

Post by layer8 » Tue, Oct 07, 2025, 6:55 PM UTC

shevy-java wrote: post #45

This is strange, because not long ago it was Germany (!!) that pushed heavily for mass-sniffing of people. I don't trust this. People should watch very, very carefully what Germany is actually doing next. I would not be surprised if the mass-sniffing comes in a few months when nobody is looking.

There is considerable opposition in Germany against these things. It’s true that some political circles keep pushing for it, but there is also a strong constitutional and civil basis against it. It’s exceedingly unlikely to happen that “nobody is looking”. The biggest risk is the far right coming into power.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#68

Post by JohnLocke4 » Tue, Oct 07, 2025, 6:56 PM UTC

lxgr wrote: post #63

fkyoureadthedoc wrote: post #59

the internet is already dying and social media largely sucks. the whole ass thing is going to be 100% ai driven ads, scams, astroturfing, propaganda, trolls and other fuckery sooner rather than later. just let chat control kill it, fuck it. accelerate to a cyberpunk future of local mesh networks.

What makes you think local mesh networks would remain legal?

It won't but luckily no government is powerful enough to govern math and therefore cryptography. Mathematics is more of a liberator than the second amendment in this respect.

Physical hardware can be controlled, yes. Decentralization and obfuscation similar to TOR is probably needed here.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#69

Post by MYEUHD » Tue, Oct 07, 2025, 6:57 PM UTC

sfdlkj3jk342a wrote: post #35

jMyles wrote: post #26

A simple way to end the discussion: No matter what the state says, or what legislatures pass what laws, we're going to continue to live out our right to general purpose computing, including sending only what we choose to send over the wire, and encrypting content as we see fit. Now let's talk about something else.

That works until the government and media successfully push the narrative to the public that anyone using encryption is supporting child molesters and terrorists.

The government itself uses encryption.

In fact the proposed chat control law has an exception for government agencies

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#70

Post by lxgr » Tue, Oct 07, 2025, 6:58 PM UTC

m12k wrote: post #57

fsflover wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless there's a law ensuring our freedoms.

I mean, the right to privacy is already enshrined in the EU's human rights. The courts would likely strike Chat Control down if it were to pass. But I wish there was a way to prevent our politicians from even trying this shit.

Other things are enshrined in the EU human rights as well, many of them ultimately contradicting each other if you follow them to their logical conclusion.

It's the task of parliaments, governments, and courts to reevaluate and resolve all these contradictions over and over again. It's tedious and takes a lot of resources, but that's the price for democracy.