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Deloitte to refund the Australian government after using AI in $440k report

theguardian.com

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Re: Deloitte to refund the Australian government after using AI in $440k report

#61
post #3

Can someone explain to me how and why consulting works? If a man had no real skills except giving advice left and right, he would be considered a loser. Now make it a company, and corporations and governments queue up for their advice. Wouldn't your own employees be in a better position to give you advice than people who know nothing of your business and who's only skills are googling and making presentations?

You would be surprised how many companies dont have the expertise in house. And of that set, you would be surprised how many make financial and technical decisions based on no expertise and get themselves into all sorts of trouble. You may also be surprised how many companies have 1 guy in house who pretends to be an expert and does his damned best to prevent people getting hired who might out them. Good consultants…

The thing is, the original problem is one that "the free market" would say should fail. That company, without the expertise required to do the job, should fail.

Having consultants do anything in this situation is antithetical to the ideal of a company. The company should fail, OR, the consultants should advise that the company should either fail or gain the expertise to no longer require consultants.

Obviously this isn't going to happen, and here we are.

Re: Deloitte to refund the Australian government after using AI in $440k report

#62

While we are on the topic of listing problems with consultants/outsourcing - another potential problem is the A team/ B team switch. During initial engagement you are often talking to somebody who appears to actually know their stuff - you hire them and find that this knowledgable person has moved on to the next big sales, and you've got the B or C team.

To balance that with a positive comment - one of the reasons for going with a consultant/outsourcing is if you have a big one/off type project that you can't resource internally with perms.

So the choice is trying to hire a bunch of individual contractors and forge them into a team, or hire a pre-built team for a period of time [1]

[1] Sometimes it's sold as a re-built team - but in reality it might be hired in exactly the same way by the consultancy....

Re: Deloitte to refund the Australian government after using AI in $440k report

#63
post #55

As someone who did an MBA and was groomed to be a Consultant and then repented (now a software engineer) you have to understand that the customer of a consultancy project is an exec. 1. The exec has been charged with exploring a new product space, a potential M&A deal, more vertical integration etc etc 2. The exec needs a gauge on the "size of the prize", is this thing worth doing? roughly how will it be done? how lo…

This entirely depends on industry and geography. I've worked with big companies where the customers of consultants were effectively middle management, several layers removed from execs.

True, they are called the "Hidden Client", any good consultant will be able to essentially do intelligence gathering on who that is and what they want, because it will be one exec

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vMdZhIfPjs&list=PLtuDeBJEKi...

Re: Deloitte to refund the Australian government after using AI in $440k report

#64

While we are on the topic of listing problems with consultants/outsourcing - another potential problem is the A team/ B team switch. During initial engagement you are often talking to somebody who appears to actually know their stuff - you hire them and find that this knowledgable person has moved on to the next big sales, and you've got the B or C team.

From my experience with using a $WITCH for a large support engagement, the A team woos you, the B team is what you get initially, and as soon as they think you've got your eye off the ball, they swap in the Z team.

This was for a contract where we made it very clear that quality/skill was paramount and we would happily pay above market rates forever if they could maintain it. Of course they got greedy and lost the deal entirely.

Re: Deloitte to refund the Australian government after using AI in $440k report

#65
post #24
post #3

Can someone explain to me how and why consulting works? If a man had no real skills except giving advice left and right, he would be considered a loser. Now make it a company, and corporations and governments queue up for their advice. Wouldn't your own employees be in a better position to give you advice than people who know nothing of your business and who's only skills are googling and making presentations?

A couple of uses of consultants that I've seen at first hand: - They helped our company to negotiate the minefield of government R&D tax credits, by interviewing all the developers and assessing how much was R&D compared to the guidelines (which are complicated). I think this was a good use of consultants: You get someone with specialized knowledge, and unless you're an enormous company, you couldn't afford to have s…

The first of these I can see as valid, but it's an optimisation that is only needed because globally, taxation law is a deliberate mine-field deisgned to support consultants. The second is exactly as you read it.

Re: Deloitte to refund the Australian government after using AI in $440k report

#66
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A couple of uses of consultants that I've seen at first hand: - They helped our company to negotiate the minefield of government R&D tax credits, by interviewing all the developers and assessing how much was R&D compared to the guidelines (which are complicated). I think this was a good use of consultants: You get someone with specialized knowledge, and unless you're an enormous company, you couldn't afford to have s…

The first of these I can see as valid, but it's an optimisation that is only needed because globally, taxation law is a deliberate mine-field deisgned to support consultants. The second is exactly as you read it.

I agree, but especially in business we have to deal with the world as it is, not as we'd like it to be.

Re: Deloitte to refund the Australian government after using AI in $440k report

#67
In the UK there is a bit of a problem with a revolving door between government and the big consultancy firms.

The most egregious example of this is where the big accountancy firms offer political parties help in formulating tax policy and once it's enacted then go around charging companies for their expertise on how to comply/avoid the new rules.

Re: Deloitte to refund the Australian government after using AI in $440k report

#68
post #3

Can someone explain to me how and why consulting works? If a man had no real skills except giving advice left and right, he would be considered a loser. Now make it a company, and corporations and governments queue up for their advice. Wouldn't your own employees be in a better position to give you advice than people who know nothing of your business and who's only skills are googling and making presentations?

Ex Director at a Big 4 consultancy here...

While I've done more than enough Powerpoint presentations telling clients what they already knew but didn't want to say out loud, there are some circumstances where bringing in a consultancy is a very good option.

Some examples:

As a software/cloud/data/AI/cyber guy (I wore a few different hats over the years...), I regularly caught up with buddies working in legal, tax, audit, retail, space travel(!!) etc. for coffee chats. It's surprising how often those of us who specialise in one domain had breakthrough moments from offhand chats with specialists in other domains. Very few people get the opportunity to have these sorts of conversations, and it's amazing how often you learn something relevant for your own work situation over a quick coffee.

When I needed expertise in one of those domains into one of my projects, I could send a message and almost always get someone on a call within a few hours. Very few organisations could get e.g. a high-ranking ex-NASA official on a call quickly to pick their brains, but I could.

Lots of times organisations don't have the deep expertise and/or available people to deliver on their internal projects. When a major rail transport provider needs to work out how to going to deal with new government critical infrastructure regulations for their IT systems, it's consultancies who can pull all the right skills together to help them out.

When there's a critical shortage of available IT skills in the marketplace, companies use consultancies to top up their workforce. Here in Australia, there were nowhere near enough GCP experts to go around for the last 4-5 years, so companies could either try to hire the very few people around at exorbitant rates, or tap a consultancy for resources.

Big 4 consultancies in particular throw high-quality training at their technical staff like nowhere else I've seen. One reason: quality training = billable hours. I had people around me burn out from too much training, and I'm pretty sure regular companies don't have that problem. For all the pointless Powerpoint presentations we did, there's a sh1tload of technical expertise sitting in Big 4 consultancies, waiting to be tapped.

Companies are always struggling with how to use the latest IT shiny tools properly. Right now it's AI - how can I use it to save costs or increase productivity? What are the ethical and legal implications that come with AI, and how can we deal with them? How can we deploy AI solutions securely? Which of our business problems are the best fit for AI solutions? How do we train our ops staff to keep these AI solutions running? - the list goes on and on.

Now a lot of people here in HN know how to do these things, but how does a regular business tap into that expertise and filter out the bullshitters? The answer is they go to a consultancy that (they feel) they can hold accountable.

On that point, sometimes execs in a company simply need someone to shield them from blame for unpopular decisions like mass layoffs. It's pretty well know that consultancies do a lot of that type of work, and they (justifiably or otherwise) cop a lot of crap over it so some exec can say "I didn't do it".

I'm probably coming across as a huge fanboy of consultancies, but remember - I'm an ex Big 4 guy. I think their influence is too large, particularly in government policy making; I've encountered way more sociopaths in Big 4 leadership roles for it to be down to chance; by any measure staff turnover and burn out is very high, and I'm convinced that's by design.

However, they have their place.

Re: Deloitte to refund the Australian government after using AI in $440k report

#69
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first of these I can see as valid, but it's an optimisation that is only needed because globally, taxation law is a deliberate mine-field deisgned to support consultants. The second is exactly as you read it.

I agree, but especially in business we have to deal with the world as it is, not as we'd like it to be.

Indeed, c'est la vie
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