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The World Trade Center under construction through photos, 1966-1979

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Re: The World Trade Center under construction through photos, 1966-1979

#61

Post by mcast »

sharkweek wrote: post #27
gdubs wrote: post #24

My parents worked and had most of their friends in Manhattan when I was a little kid — this was back in the 1980s. I have vivid memories to this day of passing the World Trade Center and being completely overwhelmed by the scale of it. Most high rises taper, but these towers just went straight up as rectangles. And the effect was almost dizzying. They were just so tall. I used to love drawing the NYC skyline as a kid…

I just visited NYC for the first time a few months ago, and had the most amazing time, one hell of a city and I can’t wait to get back. I could ramble for hours about all the things I loved about the trip, but one of the things that stuck out was all the young kids taking the subway by themselves or in small packs of friends out pretty late etc. They all seemed so much more street smart and independent than my own si…

The subway systems is one of the greatest socioeconomic equalizers in NYC. During rush hour, you'll share a subway car with a homeless man, an ER doctor wearing scrubs, a fashion model wearing YSL, a finance bro, and a food delivery worker. It's an amazing city for people watching.

Re: The World Trade Center under construction through photos, 1966-1979

#62

Post by janeroe »

nroets wrote: post #52
fidotron wrote: post #5

Tangentially: > The vision was meant to use the trade facility and urban renewal as tools to clear and revitalize what had become a “commercial slum”. What this refers to is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Row#New_York_City Basically you cannot have Akihabara or Shenzhen style electronics markets because the sort of people that built the WTC don't like their chaotic appearance.

It's not about looks but efficient use of land: Manhattan was (and still is) the financial capital of the world. It had the most valuable real estate in the world. Radio Row was a poor use of real estate. Before the Chinese traded electronics in Shenzhen, they traded it in Hong Kong. Yes, as Hong Kong transformed into a financial center, it got rid of the electronics traders.

> It's not about looks but efficient use of land

Right, confiscation from private owners to use it for erection of a building no one needs is a very efficient use of land. The project will require astronomical up front expenses, will stay vacant for almost 2 decades, and have endless problems until its last day (fires, terrorist acts, issues with the structure). But who cares, it's efficiency we are talking about.

Re: The World Trade Center under construction through photos, 1966-1979

#63

Post by chistev »

tempestn wrote: post #53
rkomorn wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you implying Gore winning would've meant 9/11 wouldn't have happened?

Not the parent, and I'm not saying it definitely wouldn't have happened (I have no idea), but it's at least possible. There was advance intelligence around the event that might have been treated differently by a different administration. Even if it had happened, the response would also have been different.

What do you think the different response would have been?

Re: The World Trade Center under construction through photos, 1966-1979

#64

Post by tonymet »

teiferer wrote: post #25
grishka wrote: post #22

I'm not an American, I've only ever been to NYC once in 2014, and I was only 8 when 9/11 happened, but somehow, seeing that skyline with those two towers still in it, evokes the feeling of simpler, friendlier times. Even though in the 90s, my own country was going through the troubles of recovering from 70 years of socialism — it was anything but simpler friendlier times.

Yeah, it was a facade. That facade fell in 2001. (I'm not saying this was good. It was a terrible tragedy. The attack itself obviously, and then what followed as well.)

it was very real

Re: The World Trade Center under construction through photos, 1966-1979

#65

Post by crote »

nroets wrote: post #52
fidotron wrote: post #5

Tangentially: > The vision was meant to use the trade facility and urban renewal as tools to clear and revitalize what had become a “commercial slum”. What this refers to is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Row#New_York_City Basically you cannot have Akihabara or Shenzhen style electronics markets because the sort of people that built the WTC don't like their chaotic appearance.

It's not about looks but efficient use of land: Manhattan was (and still is) the financial capital of the world. It had the most valuable real estate in the world. Radio Row was a poor use of real estate. Before the Chinese traded electronics in Shenzhen, they traded it in Hong Kong. Yes, as Hong Kong transformed into a financial center, it got rid of the electronics traders.

The White House and Central Park are a poor use of real estate as well. Imagine how much money you could make if you developed it into a new Kowloon Walled City!

Besides, didn't the Twin Towers have a massive occupancy problem? I recall that being the reason why so many government entities were forced to move there...

Re: The World Trade Center under construction through photos, 1966-1979

#66

Post by tempestn »

chistev wrote: post #63
tempestn wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the parent, and I'm not saying it definitely wouldn't have happened (I have no idea), but it's at least possible. There was advance intelligence around the event that might have been treated differently by a different administration. Even if it had happened, the response would also have been different.

What do you think the different response would have been?

I have no idea; I'm just saying that with different people in charge, they wouldn't have reacted in exactly the same way.

If I had to guess, I'd say at least no Iraq war, if we consider that part of the response. Patriot Act probably would have looked different. I expect there still would have been military action in Afghanistan, but likely with differences as well.

Re: The World Trade Center under construction through photos, 1966-1979

#67

Post by bamboozled »

jeswin wrote: post #6

The Twin Towers sort of represented the height of American power and prestige, and their fall kicked off the decline. From its peak in the unipolar 90s, a series of expensive misadventures that began after the towers fell diverted critical funds from development (against the backdrop of China's inevitable rise and industrial capacity), into conflict and war far away.

I couldn’t help feel the same.

Looking at where America is right now. It seems to make a downfall.

Re: The World Trade Center under construction through photos, 1966-1979

#68

Post by crote »

squeedles wrote: post #8
fidotron wrote: post #5

Tangentially: > The vision was meant to use the trade facility and urban renewal as tools to clear and revitalize what had become a “commercial slum”. What this refers to is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Row#New_York_City Basically you cannot have Akihabara or Shenzhen style electronics markets because the sort of people that built the WTC don't like their chaotic appearance.

Thanks for that. We seem to have lost sight of the importance of "commercial biodiversity" in the past 40 or more years of continuous M&A concentration. Happily, I saw a little discussion of it in 2008 when the advocates of letting the auto companies fail were pushed back by statistics showing how many second and third tier suppliers would be destroyed. But the fourth tier, the shenzhen / radio alley-type stuff is st…

It's a shame the same logic wasn't applied in maintaining a healthy root-level auto company ecosystem. Having a single megacorp at the top inevitably makes it too big to fail. On the other hand, if there are dozens of smaller car companies, the failure of any one of them is insignificant to the wider ecosystem.

A company that knows it is too big to fail will inevitably lead to mismanagement. After all, why bother saving for a rainy day when you can count on corporate welfare handouts? Why bother reducing your risks when you can always rely on a bailout? You can never lose, so the obvious thing to do is to bet as big as possible in an attempt to create as much short-term "shareholder value" as possible.

Re: The World Trade Center under construction through photos, 1966-1979

#69

Post by bamboozled »

93po wrote: post #36
timcobb wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could argue that Osama bin Laden did succeed in destroying the US if not the entire Western order.

The US did exactly what he wanted them to. He wanted to radicalize Muslims worldwide against the West and drain American resources through prolonged wars. It's also interesting how infrequently Americans know OBL's motivations for the 9/11 attacks. A big part of it was the American support of Israel, and OBL's belief that this would lead to further oppression of Muslim people in Palestine. He did terrible things but…

OBL hated Palestine ?

Re: The World Trade Center under construction through photos, 1966-1979

#70

Post by bamboozled »

tempestn wrote: post #54
teiferer wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it was a facade. That facade fell in 2001. (I'm not saying this was good. It was a terrible tragedy. The attack itself obviously, and then what followed as well.)

I don't know if I'd call it a façade. More of a lull. I was 20 in 2001, and growing up in the 90s it very much felt like we had entered "post-history". Yes, the world wasn't perfect, there was still conflict and social problems, but they were better than at any time in the past, and clearly getting better (along with technology) all the time. I was slightly too young to really remember the cold war, and my only hazy…

It’s true, the 90s definitely seemed like wildly optimistic times and technology seemed to be unlocking the “common man” in really great ways. I never had the feeling things would go backwards.
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