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How Europe crushes innovation

economist.com

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Re: How Europe crushes innovation

#61

Post by mentalfist »

Akranazon wrote: post #51
hernandipietro wrote: post #7

Innovation at the expense of crushing workers and increasing the gap between parasitic management compensation and worker wages. No, thanks. Europe may need reform but it’s not the USA way of doing things, except for the elite for which “ the economist “ is a already known and tired sockpuppet.

Why do you think software engineers in the US are paid twice as much as software engineers in Europe? Is it because US is better at crushing workers?

Because their cost of living is insane, the social safety net is shitty, labor protections nonexistent, and they don't get any holidays, among other factors

Re: How Europe crushes innovation

#62

Post by gwbas1c »

> An American firm shedding workers will incur costs equivalent to paying those sacked for seven months and be done with it.

Seems like the solution (in both the US and EU) is to have some kind of mandatory severance, probably something like continuation of salary for 1/12th of time employed, up to 12 or 18 months.

Edit: This might impact negotiations with mid-career workers, as it'll make it harder to attract someone with a long tenure at an existing job without some kind of guaranteed severance.

Re: How Europe crushes innovation

#63

Post by latexr »

Akranazon wrote: post #54
latexr wrote: post #22

The article is really making the point that shitting on workers is OK—desirable even!—so that individual companies can make trillions of dollars. “Innovation” to the author equals making money, and being unable to sack hundreds of people at once with complete disregard for them or the social impact it causes is seen as a negative.

It objectively is a negative. The American worker is much better off than the European worker. It doesn't matter if it makes you feel sad.

> The American worker is much better off than the European worker.

In what ways, specifically? And which types of workers? Remember that labor laws aren’t exclusive to developers.

> It doesn't matter if it makes you feel sad.

Can we skip the transparent rage bait and personal jabs, though? There are other forums if you want to engage in that, I’m personally not interested.

Re: How Europe crushes innovation

#64

Post by latexr »

gwbas1c wrote: post #60
latexr wrote: post #22

The article is really making the point that shitting on workers is OK—desirable even!—so that individual companies can make trillions of dollars. “Innovation” to the author equals making money, and being unable to sack hundreds of people at once with complete disregard for them or the social impact it causes is seen as a negative.

The case is very simple: Working on risky ventures requires the ability to lay people off when the venture is not profitable. When only 1/5 risky ventures is profitable, you can't expect a business to take a risk if the likely result is severe financial penalties for failure.

I understand the argument the article is making. The point I’m making is that “innovation” which consists of a select few being better off at the expense of the majority is not something to be celebrated.

Re: How Europe crushes innovation

#65

Post by spwa4 »

mentalfist wrote: post #61
Akranazon wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think software engineers in the US are paid twice as much as software engineers in Europe? Is it because US is better at crushing workers?

Because their cost of living is insane, the social safety net is shitty, labor protections nonexistent, and they don't get any holidays, among other factors

The pay difference is not a factor 2. You are paid 300-400% more than in the EU easily in the US, and the difference grows if you compare net pay vs before-tax. Cost of living bay area vs center Paris is a wash. Hell, I'd say the food is actually cheaper in the US. Frankly, unless you know your way around to avoid tourist places, food is cheaper and better in the US compared to center of Paris, although I'll agree that if you look around you can find much better in Paris than in the Bay Area.

And if you're employed, especially as a SWE, medical care is better in the US. If you're not ... EU >>> US.

Re: How Europe crushes innovation

#66

Post by kkfx »

As an European, I don't agree with the analysis: it's not labour law that has stifled innovation, but the post-WWII generation that chose to try stopping the train of history.

Those born between the late 40s and 60s want NOTHING to do with innovation, people, from every social background and culture; the development model imposed after the war has killed Western Europe. From being the former greatest secular innovators, we've become the last wheels on the cart, still with some pockets of excellence, but not for long, and most don't want to capitalise on them. This is without even considering the high-treasonous nazi governments in almost all EU countries that pursue foreign interests against our own. Because this has been happening for decades, to put it plainly.

The populations who, when young, sang "we are always twenty years old" today reject all innovation, and the cure is simply the social fracture that will lead them to marginalisation compared to their current dominance, unfortunately dragging everyone down with them.

Re: How Europe crushes innovation

#67

Post by s0sa »

rich_sasha wrote: post #34
s0sa wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you arriving at these percentages? Show your work.

How nicely you ask. I arrived at them by division. Since you ask so nicely, it gives me pleasure to provide further details: - This link discusses the 2025 EU budget: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/eu-annual-budget... there are two numbers. It is unclear if the budget is the sum, or if one number includes the other. But let's add them for an annual budget of approx 250bn EUR - EU GDP is around 20tn EUR a…

As I suspected, there isn’t much there. What about individual member state expenditures (perhaps even limited to spending on things required by EU law)? OP’s point may have been silly, but this really isn’t any better.

Re: How Europe crushes innovation

#69

Post by WarOnPrivacy »

nomel wrote: post #39
bojan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because then the question arises: What if the current way of handling labor protection in the EU (as one of many components) leads to destroying yours and everyone elses standard of living, simply because it's unaffordable? It's quite an assumption that it's unaffordable. In the last decades efficiency has been only increasing, but working hours per week aren't significantly going down nor are the salaries noticeab…

> efficiency has been only increasing Through innovation.

> Through innovation.

done by the workforce. The financial benefits of worker innovation flow upwards, first to shareholders then to executives. Whatever is left over is claimed by expenses, modernization and as low a wage as can be engineered.

Re: How Europe crushes innovation

#70

Post by knowledge-clay »

jstummbillig wrote: post #20
knowledge-clay wrote: post #10

I'd rather live in a society with strong labor protections than one that is "more innovative", whatever that means.

Do you really? Or do you actually want to sustain your standard of living as safely as you can? Because then the question arises: What if the current way of handling labor protection in the EU (as one of many components) leads to destroying yours and everyone elses standard of living, simply because it's unaffordable? Would you still argue that this is the way to go? Everyone going down with the ship together? I don'…

> Because then the question arises: What if the current way of handling labor protection in the EU (as one of many components) leads to destroying yours and everyone elses standard of living, simply because it's unaffordable?

The GDP/capita of e.g. France is 10x what it was in the 1970s. There is nothing "unaffordable" about the European social safety net, except that there are political pressures to dismantle it (right-liberals like the Economist)

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