Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance • Hacker News Board

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#61

Post by octo888 » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 8:36 AM UTC

afandian wrote: post #48

Lauris100 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone has a smartphone lol - i can tell that living in a country with great digital services is a lot less stressful than in country with no digitization and old school paperwork i have gone through both.

Not everyone has a smartphone with the latest OS and a fully charged battery. > i can tell that living in a country with great digital services is a lot less stressful For everyone who deserves to participate in society?

> fully charged battery.

Yup. Look at train tickets in England. For now it's a convenience but you'll notice the law hasn't kept up with the push to have tickets on phones: the law still says you must produce on demand a ticket when requested. So if your battery runs out or your phone crashes or the app glitches or you've annoyed the "safety" department of Google/Apple... it's entirely your problem

A moody ticket inspector is under no obligation really to give you a few minutes to sort it out

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#62

Post by energy123 » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 8:37 AM UTC

stavros wrote: post #10

hhh wrote: post #2

I dunno man, I migrated to the Netherlands and our digital ID is an amazing system that literally makes my life easier anytime i need to interact with something. An open standard for the world to use for this seems like the ideal way you would want it to happen. I also personally think we are going to need some form of digital id and hopefully some sort of attribute based credential implementation à la the DECODE pro…

I'm not against digital ID, but I am very much against perfect law enforcement. Society evolves, and things that used to be unthinkable (eg gay marriage) slowly become acceptable. To become acceptable, however, they need to be allowed to be done, even if illegally. If you arrested every homosexual the moment they kissed someone, then homosexuality would never have become legal. Perfect enforcement leads to an ossifie…

Case in point is actually the Netherlands, which is the country the GP is from. When the Nazis took over the Netherlands, they relied on the state's exceptional record keeping of individuals to hunt down the undesirables. Many people died that didn't have to die because the bad guys were enabled by the data systems built by the good guys.

> It will be a perfect dictatorship that can never be toppled, it can only get worse.

This might be the asymptotic steady state, due to the absorbing nature (in a Markov state sense) of future dictatorships. You only have to enter the state once, then you get stuck in that state. But democracy has to be ever vigilant, and it cannot fail even once. There is an unfortunate offense-defense asymmetry there.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#63

Post by scott_w » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 8:37 AM UTC

stavros wrote: post #10

hhh wrote: post #2

I dunno man, I migrated to the Netherlands and our digital ID is an amazing system that literally makes my life easier anytime i need to interact with something. An open standard for the world to use for this seems like the ideal way you would want it to happen. I also personally think we are going to need some form of digital id and hopefully some sort of attribute based credential implementation à la the DECODE pro…

I'm not against digital ID, but I am very much against perfect law enforcement. Society evolves, and things that used to be unthinkable (eg gay marriage) slowly become acceptable. To become acceptable, however, they need to be allowed to be done, even if illegally. If you arrested every homosexual the moment they kissed someone, then homosexuality would never have become legal. Perfect enforcement leads to an ossifie…

> Every dystopian film or movie starts with some tyrannical society and a resistance movement. Now imagine you made resistance impossible, which is what perfect law enforcement will do.

I dunno, the Nazis did a fucking good job without Digital ID. They weren't overthrown by a resistance movement, they were crushed by the combined might of the Allied and Soviet armies.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#64

Post by pjc50 » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 8:37 AM UTC

scott_w wrote: post #60

hhh wrote: post #2

I dunno man, I migrated to the Netherlands and our digital ID is an amazing system that literally makes my life easier anytime i need to interact with something. An open standard for the world to use for this seems like the ideal way you would want it to happen. I also personally think we are going to need some form of digital id and hopefully some sort of attribute based credential implementation à la the DECODE pro…

From the UK and listening to people who don't have things like passports, it sounds like it'll make proving your right to work much easier for people, too. I've spoken to friends who have foreign relatives and they've also pointed out the problem the UK has which is: 1. To open a bank account you need an address 2. To rent somewhere (get an address), you need a bank account 3. See above The same happens for children…

> I've spoken to friends who have foreign relatives and they've also pointed out the problem the UK has which is

Lots of countries have this circularity, including Continental ones with ID systems, and I think it's an intentional anti-immigrant measure.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#65

Post by pjc50 » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 8:38 AM UTC

ta20240528 wrote: post #59

jcgl wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If smartphones are to be a requirement for participation in civil society, privacy- and freedom-preserving smartphones are needed at the very least. People shouldn't be required to submit to some company's Terms of Service in order to participate in society.

Should everyone be required to use private banks to access e.g. foreign exchange? The answer is yes: which is why banks are licensed and have ombudsmen. As are telcos. No modern society is going to maintain a parallel government economy to serve the vanishingly small minority who live in fear of private companies. Perhaps they should (IDK), but they won't.

Telcos are licensed. Mobile phone manufacturers and, crucially, OS providers, are not. Although in the EU they are now subject to some Digital Markets Act control.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#66

Post by scott_w » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 8:39 AM UTC

energy123 wrote: post #62

stavros wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not against digital ID, but I am very much against perfect law enforcement. Society evolves, and things that used to be unthinkable (eg gay marriage) slowly become acceptable. To become acceptable, however, they need to be allowed to be done, even if illegally. If you arrested every homosexual the moment they kissed someone, then homosexuality would never have become legal. Perfect enforcement leads to an ossifie…

Case in point is actually the Netherlands, which is the country the GP is from. When the Nazis took over the Netherlands, they relied on the state's exceptional record keeping of individuals to hunt down the undesirables. Many people died that didn't have to die because the bad guys were enabled by the data systems built by the good guys. > It will be a perfect dictatorship that can never be toppled, it can only get…

> When the Nazis took over the Netherlands, they relied on the state's exceptional record keeping of individuals to hunt down the undesirables. Many people died that didn't have to die because the bad guys were enabled by the data systems built by the good guys.

In many cases, they looked at the census records; something that most western nations have today anyway.

Let's be real: if your government decides to slaughter an entire class of people in its own borders, there's nothing you as a citizen can do except flee and hope to get out without being caught (or sent back).

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#67

Post by agnishom » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 8:39 AM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #15

stavros wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not against digital ID, but I am very much against perfect law enforcement. Society evolves, and things that used to be unthinkable (eg gay marriage) slowly become acceptable. To become acceptable, however, they need to be allowed to be done, even if illegally. If you arrested every homosexual the moment they kissed someone, then homosexuality would never have become legal. Perfect enforcement leads to an ossifie…

This is the part of the argument I don’t get. A digital ID system like the one in NL is basically just a login system. It’s oauth for public services, not too different from “sign in with Google”. How does that lead to perfect law enforcement? Like, how does it prevent homosexuals from kissing? I don't mean this dismissively. I assume there is a series of steps that make sense that I’m not seeing.

The main concern here is that it will create a narrow bridge (i.e, the digital ID system) between people and various services and opportunities which will make it an easy target for people who wish to wield power against someone.

Perhaps your digital ID is needed to open a bank account, get a phone number, sign up for insurance, etc. Now, suppose some fascist government comes into power. They could start cancelling the digital ID's of people or groups they do not like or are bigotted against. These people start losing access to critical infrastructure.

Now, this could already happen, even with imperfect paper IDs, of course. But by making everything digital, we are reducing societal resilience towards such kind of hostility.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#68

Post by Mashimo » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 8:41 AM UTC

graemep wrote: post #30

Mashimo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same in Denmark. It acts as a SSO for Banks, library, 2fa for debit card, hospital websites, all kinds of government services. Makes it easy, because you don't need a new or different account.

Which means the provider can track you across all those. What you spend, what you read, what medical treatment you have. All just to save carrying a wallet?

They can definitely track when and where you log in.

I can't say if there are backdoors in place for them to log in, and if that is (currently) legal.

Hospitals and libraries are government run, I would assume even if they had their own login, they could manage to snoop the data, no?

These are all online service. So it's not even a wallet argument. But we recently got digital drivers license, which can be used in the "real" world. That is one card less you need to carry around. Only in DK and only for DK citizens though.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#69

Post by pjc50 » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 8:41 AM UTC

scott_w wrote: post #63

stavros wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not against digital ID, but I am very much against perfect law enforcement. Society evolves, and things that used to be unthinkable (eg gay marriage) slowly become acceptable. To become acceptable, however, they need to be allowed to be done, even if illegally. If you arrested every homosexual the moment they kissed someone, then homosexuality would never have become legal. Perfect enforcement leads to an ossifie…

> Every dystopian film or movie starts with some tyrannical society and a resistance movement. Now imagine you made resistance impossible, which is what perfect law enforcement will do. I dunno, the Nazis did a fucking good job without Digital ID. They weren't overthrown by a resistance movement, they were crushed by the combined might of the Allied and Soviet armies.

We're also seeing how this plays out with ICE in the US: they're doing random street sweeps, and then the burden of proof is on the victim. They're not stopped by the lack of an ID system.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#70

Post by stavros » Fri, Oct 03, 2025, 8:42 AM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #15

stavros wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not against digital ID, but I am very much against perfect law enforcement. Society evolves, and things that used to be unthinkable (eg gay marriage) slowly become acceptable. To become acceptable, however, they need to be allowed to be done, even if illegally. If you arrested every homosexual the moment they kissed someone, then homosexuality would never have become legal. Perfect enforcement leads to an ossifie…

This is the part of the argument I don’t get. A digital ID system like the one in NL is basically just a login system. It’s oauth for public services, not too different from “sign in with Google”. How does that lead to perfect law enforcement? Like, how does it prevent homosexuals from kissing? I don't mean this dismissively. I assume there is a series of steps that make sense that I’m not seeing.

I didn't say this specific system does, some systems might, and those are the ones I'm against. If it's just a login (we have the same in Greece), I'm fine with it.

The ID checks in the UK are an example of something I'm against.