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A 3K-year-old copper smelting site could be key to understanding origins of iron

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Re: A 3K-year-old copper smelting site could be key to understanding origins of iron

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right? "Early metallurgists found to have been experimenting with the properties of metals and ores, laying the foundation for future advances that would prove economically and technologically important" is not the biggest possible reveal.

To be clear, I'm not dismissing the research, which seems to be more about how they discovered it. I can understand if that was/is an open question, and these possible answers are pretty interesting. I was just wondering if there were competing theories here with reasons to doubt one is more likely than the other.

Many years ago, my roommate was working on his PhD in geology while my history obsession was in full bloom and we talked about this a little. He made some interesting points about iron versus copper supply and how its relative abundance meant that some cultures would have had access to iron long before access to copper.

The transition to iron was very slow and some places kept using bronze for centuries. There’s also no single point (known) for where the Iron Age started. In Nigeria, for example, it seems most likely that Nok people worked with iron first and had no significant Copper or Bronze Age.

I think that the closest answer is that we don’t know for sure, but evidence seems to show that the path to iron followed different paths in different parts of the world. In some cases, the copper industry would have been heavily involved. In other places, an iron industry seemed to take shape before a copper industry, so the developments would have been independent.

Re: A 3K-year-old copper smelting site could be key to understanding origins of iron

#62
post #56
post #18

Can anyone recommend a book (I'm imagining sort of 'coffee table' style picture book, but not necessarily) on technological advancements through human history, ideally roughly chronologically but more organised around what needed to happen before the next was possible?

James Burke should write the book to accompany his "Connections" tv show.

He did:

https://openlibrary.org/search?isbn=9780333248270>

Re: A 3K-year-old copper smelting site could be key to understanding origins of iron

#63
post #18

Can anyone recommend a book (I'm imagining sort of 'coffee table' style picture book, but not necessarily) on technological advancements through human history, ideally roughly chronologically but more organised around what needed to happen before the next was possible?

James Burke's Connections (companion to his 1978 television series of the same name) does this in fair part, though it tracks a number of distinct (and somewhat idiosyncratic) paths through time.

https://openlibrary.org/search?isbn=9780333248270>

There's Joseph Needham's Science and Civilisation in China though that's not exactly a coffee-table book. It's staggering in its own way, however:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_Civilisation_in_Ch...>

Re: A 3K-year-old copper smelting site could be key to understanding origins of iron

#64
post #2

> Sparkly hematite mineral was used as a flux by copper smelters. Its distinctive appearance may have helped to attract attention from ancient miners and prospectors. Every once in a while I pull up some Wikipedia article with idle curiosity of "If I were transported back in time, could I usefully help this get invented?" One result of this is a helpless appreciation for how complicated it can be to even identify wha…

One of the axioms I go by is that people were never stupid. Our ancestors 5000 and 10000 years ago were just as smart , intelligent and curios as we are today. With regards to metals, I have no doubt someone, be it a kid apprentice or a master smelter, experimented with melting different rocks to see what comes out. After all, if you already know that different rocks spew out different metals (copper, tin, etc..) it…

> Our ancestors 5000 and 10000 years ago were just as smart , intelligent and curios as we are today.

That sounds nice but axiomatic egalitarianism might, just might, not be empirically true.

We know that there are vast differences in all modern uniform populations we have tested -- intelligence is normally distributed and the differences between the tails are huge.

We also know that different populations have different distributions -- slightly different standard deviations, sometimes vastly different means.

Why wouldn't that also have been true at the dawn of history and in pre-history?

Since we do now know many alleles that influence intelligence and we roughly know their effect sizes (very small for almost all of them) and since we can actually sequence really old DNA in some cases, we can actually come up with reasonable guesses for how intelligent people were thousands of years ago.

And what do you know? They do differ. Or at least, their allele frequencies do for those alleles that we are pretty sure have an influence on intelligence. Some of them really do seem to have been pretty dim. Others not so dim.

PS: It's difficult to make an iron sword/knife/axe that is better than a bronze one.

Re: A 3K-year-old copper smelting site could be key to understanding origins of iron

#65
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the axioms I go by is that people were never stupid. Our ancestors 5000 and 10000 years ago were just as smart , intelligent and curios as we are today. With regards to metals, I have no doubt someone, be it a kid apprentice or a master smelter, experimented with melting different rocks to see what comes out. After all, if you already know that different rocks spew out different metals (copper, tin, etc..) it…

> Then someone will give that mee Iron sword/knife/axe a try , duel a friend, ruin their bronze weapon, and said friend will be like "holy shit I want an iron sword too it's way too good" and bam you got a meme. Iron is not a superior material to bronze, if anything it's inferior. Iron's either soft or brittle, depending on carbon content, neither of them awesome qualities in a tool or a weapon. Also, iron's consider…

> Where there was copper, there was no tin, and vice versa.

There were some exceptions on the British Isles. Even some mines that had both.

Re: A 3K-year-old copper smelting site could be key to understanding origins of iron

#66
post #2

> Sparkly hematite mineral was used as a flux by copper smelters. Its distinctive appearance may have helped to attract attention from ancient miners and prospectors. Every once in a while I pull up some Wikipedia article with idle curiosity of "If I were transported back in time, could I usefully help this get invented?" One result of this is a helpless appreciation for how complicated it can be to even identify wha…

pretty much why gold was probably the earliest worked metals. easy to identify, can be cold worked in a lot of cases. doesn't corrode.

Re: A 3K-year-old copper smelting site could be key to understanding origins of iron

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started reading Josephine Quinn's book "How the world made the west" and I can recommend it. It goes quite into detail and is not of the sort "coffee-table"-style picture book. It explains the origins of technologies, trade between groups and challenges the common view how civilizations evolved.

Based on the title it sounds like the intentions of the author were more politically motivated than anything else.

Based on reading the Guardian review (that predictably praises it and seems to be written by someone who doesn't know much history) and a much better review on a website run, weirdly enough, by Christians (written by someone who does know history), I would agree.

The first half of the quality review praises the good parts of the book, the second half is where the meat is.

It is probably a useful book if you don't know much about the classical world but it doesn't seem like one should take one's politics from it.

Quality review:

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/reviews/how-world-made-we...

Low quality review:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/feb/28/how-the-world-...

Re: A 3K-year-old copper smelting site could be key to understanding origins of iron

#68

Can anyone explain iron - unless it is steel (which was not a common knowledge trough history) it is worse than bronze in every aspect. So what lead to the iron age?

Transportation costs used to be huge.

Re: A 3K-year-old copper smelting site could be key to understanding origins of iron

#69

Fun fact, in the Quran prophet David (Dawwud) was granted a miracle that he can shape and mould iron easily, perhaps for building weaponary and armor. Another fun fact, there's a surah or chapter name iron (Al-Hadiid) in the Quran [2]. [1] Quran 34:10: https://quran.com/saba/10 Indeed, We granted David a (great) privilege from Us, (commanding:) “O mountains! Echo his hymns! And the birds as well.” We made iron moulda…

Not sure I see the relevance

"We waz smiths", I think.

Re: A 3K-year-old copper smelting site could be key to understanding origins of iron

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started reading Josephine Quinn's book "How the world made the west" and I can recommend it. It goes quite into detail and is not of the sort "coffee-table"-style picture book. It explains the origins of technologies, trade between groups and challenges the common view how civilizations evolved.

Based on the title it sounds like the intentions of the author were more politically motivated than anything else.

The author is a professor of ancient history at Oxford University. What makes you think it is political? A book can specialise in Western history without having a hidden agenda.
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