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Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

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Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#61

I started having RSI issues 2 years ago, what a way to welcome me to my 30s. It was excruciatingly painful just getting through a workday even with plenty of breaks. I didn't care for building my own keyboard I literally just wanted something to help me not be in pain no matter how weird it looked. I've ended up on a Kinesis advantage 360 pro after spending thousands of dollars on keyboards because I needed something…

These look great and I don’t doubt it’s worth the investment, but holy hell $500 is a tough price tag to accept.

I've definitely spent way more than $500 over the several models of keyboards, albeit the ASP was more like $200 or so.

My view on it is, a good keyboard will get several years of use out of it, the average yearly price isn't really that much. Second, it's something I'm touching several hours most days of my life. I'm using a keyboard more than I wear shoes personally (I do prefer the barefoot life, so I'm a bit odd there). I'm touching it more than my couch or my dining chairs or other things in my home. Isn't it worthwhile that it's comfortable and exactly what I want from it?

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#63

All I want is a quality split mechanical keyboard with Function keys. I use an IDE all day, I don't want to pull quadruple buckies every time I debug. The Matias Ergo Pro is almost perfect, but I had two of them and they both failed within one year. I had one of each switch type (low force and regular) - both were missing some button presses and repeating other button presses.

I have a Moonlander and I genuinely don’t understand why so many split keyboards do this.

“Here’s a really nice split keyboard. But we’ve removed everything except the alphanumerics”

Whhhyyyy.

“Oh but it’s programmable. And you can have layers. And you can have macros”

Cool. I actually didn’t want any of that. I just wanted a single row of function keys. My Moonlander can somehow make space for a “meh” key, a “caps word” key, 3 keys in 2 variations for “change layer” but a play/pause/ volume keys are simply out of the question.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#64
Oddly, switching to a custom Lisp Machine-inspired keyboard has been better for hand/wrist pain than my Ergodox or the Kinesis Advantage I used before. It's a staggered key, non-split, flat QWERTY keyboard. I think maybe they're just good keyswitches? Here's the keyboard: https://jfloren.net/b/2024/10/23/0

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then many keyboard shortcuts require four keys to be depressed all at once. Just for an example off the top of my head, in JetBrains IDEs the shortcut for hiding all tools is Ctrl-Shift-F12.

As much as i like the idea of these split keyboards that are more ergonomic, I can’t get over the idea of missing keys and having to use chords or new combinations of hotkeys. I use nearly every key of my 104 key keyboard. Literally pause/break and scroll lock are the only ones I don’t use; and I’ve remapped those to be volume controls. If anything, i’d like even more keys for macros and dedicated shortcuts. But so m…

One of the nice things about QMK is the ability to get secondary functions on double / triple tap and press and hold combinations. I also couldn't get comfortable with big chording combos, so for example a lot of the keys in my thumb cluster do double duty.

1) My space key is right CTRL when held down.

2) I have two keys for "", one on each thumb cluster, one is Alt when held down, the other is left CTRL.

3) Page up and down have their own keys on one of those clusters because I no longer needed them for the modifiers, and so page up and down are also home and end if they're held down.

4) Auto shift is on, and I've tuned to to eliminate most of the accidental shifts while keeping it relatively quick to type CONSTANT_VALUES (I actually still have shift keys in the usual positions but on the ergodox I have it feels like a big stretch to hit them and type so I use the auto-shift most of the time, but I do admit this is the convenience function I have the most love/hate relationship with)

5) The shift keys themselves give me open parentheses (left shift) and close parentheses (right shift) when double tapped.

The only chording I have to do these days (that isn't normal keyboard shortcuts) is I have a dedicated key to switch to a layer for FN keys when held down. And the reality is I could (and should) probably map the number keys to be FN keys when double tapped since I don't think I ever hold an FN key down.

This[1] isn't my most current layout (missing the home/end on the pageup/down buttons) but it's pretty much what I've landed on after about a year of using one of these. And realistically there are unused keys there I could remap still. The CTRL where the capslock key would be is never used in favor of the thumb cluster versions, the left and right CTRL keys on the tops of the two thumb clusters are leftovers from older layouts and unused right now. I've never used the "Meh" key or the "'" and "Capslock" keys in the lower left. The "Command-enter" and "[" and "]" keys in the lower right are another leftover from an older layout that are also unused now. So lots of room to play around still.

Not saying you should definitely switch, there are still some things that I'm not 100% happy with (those inner symbol keys are a stretch sometimes and depending on what code I'm writing feel like I could move them around) and getting used to the ortholinear layout is a whole thing on its own. But if it's something that interests you, maybe that layout can help you find a good starting point.

[1]: https://configure.zsa.io/ergodox-ez-st/layouts/wzKWq/latest/...

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#66

I struggled with the Moonlander although it is a wonderful keyboard. I mapped it to a Colemak layout varient when I first got it. I was constantly discovering key combos that didn't quite work for whatever reason and made tweaks to the layout or the shortcuts in various editors. Forever tying my brain in knots learning and relearning mappings and combos. Then I'd frequently jump on other peoples computers/laptops to…

I'd say it's definitely the colemak change. They keyboard by itself takes some getting used to, a new layout on top would be overwhelming.

I kept mine pretty close to a standard qwerty - the only customizations are where I put the "\|", backspace, dash and a few other keys, along with what to do with all the thumb keys. Even with these relatively minor changes, it still took me about a week to recover my WPM, and I had to use their touch typing software to practice for an hour or two. Making only a few changes also makes it seamless to switch to laptop keyboards, etc.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#67

All I want is a quality split mechanical keyboard with Function keys. I use an IDE all day, I don't want to pull quadruple buckies every time I debug. The Matias Ergo Pro is almost perfect, but I had two of them and they both failed within one year. I had one of each switch type (low force and regular) - both were missing some button presses and repeating other button presses.

You might try the UHK 80: https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/uhk80

I have the UHK 60 and I really like it, except as you mentioned no function keys.

The software is pretty good, includes a little DSL and you can do pretty much anything you want.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#68
The thing I don’t like about keyboards this is that I still have to use a mouse and these keyboards don’t really address that. If I mounted on the arms of my desk, it’s even harder to get to the mouse. Maybe a few people can get away with just them all day, but I can’t.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#69

The thing I don’t like about keyboards this is that I still have to use a mouse and these keyboards don’t really address that. If I mounted on the arms of my desk, it’s even harder to get to the mouse. Maybe a few people can get away with just them all day, but I can’t.

It's a pretty big departure from traditional keyboards, but there are a bunch of dactyl variants which have a trackball in the thumb cluster. I'm not sure how practical this really is, having never used one, but it's conceptually nifty.

Re: Thoughts on Mechanical Keyboards and the ZSA Moonlander

#70

I have two moonlanders but wound up giving up because I just couldn't adapt to it. And when writing code, finding the symbols like {, =, }, and other common coding ones was just too difficult to retain muscle memory. I tried many layouts, I tried to make my own, and at the end of the day it was just too different. I wish I had a better experience. Any recommendations?

I didn't like the default layouts for symbols either and wound up building this layout[1] (there have been a few minor tweaks since but nothing substantial). The parens as double taps on the shift keys is the big one for me for writing code. The other brackets on the inside are convenient enough to use but not occupying "prime" space, and I have "auto-shift" enabled so a top on "[" give that character, but holding it down (for > 160ms) gives "{" (and same for all the other keys and their respective shifted versions. And in case it isn't clear what's going on in the thumb clusters, the two enter keys and the space key do their respective actions on tap, and do Left CTRL, ALT or Right CTRL respectively when held down. Might be a place to start if you wanted to try again.

Also on the "muscle memory" thing, I decided early on to not try to modify any other keyboards in my life. Just the ergodox get the middlemak and super custom layout. I found that preserves muscle memory for laptop built in keyboards and using other people's and allows my brain to form a completely separate set of muscle memory that kicks in on the ergodox and neither seem to conflict with each other. Works for my brain, might work for you too.

[1]: https://configure.zsa.io/ergodox-ez-st/layouts/wzKWq/latest/...

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