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AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

elma.dev

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Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#63

Strongly disagree with "AI Was Supposed to Help Juniors Shine". It was always understood that it would seriously push down demand for them.

The people selling the AIs probably initially wanted to replace seniors with juniors.

Much like how Java was supposed to being us as an age where you didn't need to that good at coding 30 years ago.

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#65

If you search back HN history to the beginnings of AI coding in 2021 you will find people observing that AI is bad for juniors because they can't distinguish between good and bad completions. There is no surprise, it's always been this way. Edit interesting thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27678424 Edit: an example of the kind of comment I was talking about: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27677690

Pretty much, but it already starts at the prompting and context level.

Senior engineers either already know exactly where the changes need to be made and can suggest what to do. They probably know the pitfalls, have established patterns, architectures and designs in their head. Juniors on the other hand don't have that, so they go with whatever. Nowadays a lot of them also "ask ChatGPT about its opinion on architecture" when told to refactor (a real quote from real junior/mid engineers), leading to either them using whatever sloppypasta they get provided.

Senior devs earned their experience of what is good/bad through writing code, understanding how hard and annoying it is to make a change, then reworking those parts or making them better the next time. The feedback loop was impactful beacause it was based on that code and them working with that code, so they knew exactly what the annoying parts are.

Vibe-coding juniors do not know that, their conversation context knows that. Once things get buggy and changes are hard, they will fill up their context with tries/retries until it works, leading to their feedback loop being trained on prompts and coding tools, not code itself.

Even if they read the outputted code, they have no experience using it so they are not aware of the issues - i.e. something would be better being a typed state, but they don't really use it so they will not care, as they do not have to handle the edge cases, they will not understand the DX from an IDE, they will not build a full mental model of how it works, just a shallow one.

This leads to insane inefficiencies - wasting 50 prompt cycles instead of 10, not understanding cross-codebase patterns, lack of learning transfer from codebase to codebase, etc.

With a minor understanding of state modeling and architecture, an vibe-coding junior can be made 100x more efficient, but due to the vibe-coding itself, they will probably never learn state modeling and architecture, learn to refactor or properly manipulate abstractions, leading to an eternal cycle of LLM-driven sloppypasta code, trained on millions of terrible github repositories, old outdated API's and stack overflow answers.

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#67
> The early narrative was that companies would need fewer seniors, and juniors together with AI could produce quality code

I'm not deep into it, but I have not a single time seen that direction argued before this post. Maybe it was _really_ early on?

The narratives I always saw were, firstly, "it will be as a good as a junior dev", then "it's like pairing with an overly enthusiastic junior dev", then finally arguments similar to those presented in this article.

Which, frankly, I'm still not so sure about. Productivity is incredibly hard to measure: we are still not completely, non-anecdotally sure AI makes folk broadly more productive. And even if it does, I am beginning to wonder how much ai is short term productivity with long term brain rot, and whether that trade off is really worth it.

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#68
post #60

The best code I've written with an LLM has been where I architect it, I guide the LLM through the scaffolding and initial proofs of different components, and then I guide it through adding features. Along the way it makes mistakes and I guide it through fixing them. Then when it is slow, I profile and guide it through optimizations. So in the end, it's code that I know very, very well. I could have written it but it…

Would it have actually taken you 3x longer?

I am surprising myself these days with how fast I'm being using AI as a glorified Stack Overflow.

We are also having studies and posts come out that when actually tried side-by-side, the AI writes the coding route is slower, though the developer percieves it as faster.

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#69
These days, AI can do much more than "Cranking out boilerplate and scaffolding, Automating repetitive routines". That was last year. With the right instructions, Claude Sonnet 4 can easily write over 99% of most business applications. You need to be specific in your instructions, though. Like "implement this table, add these fields, look at this and this implementation for reference, don't forget to do this and consider that." Mention examples or name algorithms and design patterns it should use. And it still doesn't always do what you want on the first attempt, and you need to correct it (which is why I prefer Claude Code over Copilot, makes it easier). But AI can write pretty much all code for a developer who knows what the code should look like. And that's the point: junior developers typically don't know this, so they won't be able to get good results.

Most of the time, the only reason for typing code manually these days is that typing instructions for the LLM is sometimes more work than doing the change yourself.

Re: AI was supposed to help juniors shine. Why does it mostly make seniors stronger?

#70

If you search back HN history to the beginnings of AI coding in 2021 you will find people observing that AI is bad for juniors because they can't distinguish between good and bad completions. There is no surprise, it's always been this way. Edit interesting thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27678424 Edit: an example of the kind of comment I was talking about: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27677690

Pretty much, but it already starts at the prompting and context level. Senior engineers either already know exactly where the changes need to be made and can suggest what to do. They probably know the pitfalls, have established patterns, architectures and designs in their head. Juniors on the other hand don't have that, so they go with whatever. Nowadays a lot of them also "ask ChatGPT about its opinion on architectu…

I was thinking about this last week.

I don't think this is necessarily a massive moat for senior programmers. I feel it's a not a massive jump to teach AI architecture patterns and good data modelling?

I feel that anthropic etc al. just haven't got to that training stage yet.

That then leaves you with the mental model problem. Yes, there then a large context problem, but again I was wondering if setting up an MCP that presented the AI a meaningful class map or something might help.

Essentially give the AI a mental model of the code. I personally find class maps useless as they tend to clash with my own mental model. But it might work with AI. The class map can obviously be built without AI, but then you might even get AI to go through the code function by function and annotate the class map with comments about any oddities of each function. The MCP server could even limit the size of the map, depending on what part of the code it's looking to change (working on the email sending, don't bother sending them the UI later).

I'm guessing someone's already tried it given some of the ridiculous .Claude folders I've seen[1] but I've seen no-one talking about whether it works or not yet in the discussions I follow.

[1] That I suspect are pointlessly over complicated and make CC worse not better

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