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Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

bessstillman.substack.com

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Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#61

Post by y-curious »

roughly wrote: post #51

I say this with respect and love to the author: it does not sound like you’re handling this just fine. I think you’re right that there’s no way to handle this just fine, and you’re right that you’ve got a very good reason for not being just fine, and it’s in fact very normal and expected for you to not be handling this just fine, but it is also the case that you’re not handling this just fine. I think we tend to reac…

Yeah, her being confused for an extended amount of time when a friend sits down at the coffee shop instead of her husband is definitely problematic. I think it's weird to write an article attempting to ridicule the DSM in this case.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#62

Post by NateEag »

krapp wrote: post #40
xyzelement wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry for your loss, and thank you for your perspective. >> Absolutely right. There is a certain cowardice in how we deal with death in the contemporary west. I never thought about it but it likely stems from loss of religion, like many other problems. If I see my life as insignificant in the chain of generations - as a conduit between ancestors and descendants - and believe in the soul at least as a metaphor - then…

Atheism doesn't presuppose either hedonism or nihilism. This is a common theist libel which is surprisingly popular on this forum of ersatz rational thinkers and logicians. Atheists are perfectly capable of finding value and meaning in their own lives and the world around them, they just don't base that value on a belief in the supernatural. Listen to any astrophysicist, physicist or biologist talk about their field…

> Atheism doesn't presuppose either hedonism or nihilism.

And if the GP thought it did, he would not have bothered to qualify it with those labels.

Since they _did_ specify "atheistic hedonism/nihilism," we know they're talking about those specific stripes of atheism, and can discuss that.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#63

Post by ratelimitsteve »

igleria wrote: post #14

> Sometimes, I’ll go ahead and dial Jake’s phone number in case the laws of entropy have changed, and he picks up I should not cry at work but damn, I want to.

The worst part of 5 years and 2 months mourning my baby brother was the day that the dream got me. I dreamt about him a lot but I'm a shit screenwriter so the dreams were always cliched garbage with obvious meaning. Stuff like "We're standing on a bridge that I can't cross, and he says he needs to cross it but I'm trying to convince him not to". The kind of stuff you write for a high school creative writing class that you don't need to pass in order to graduate. But one got me goooooooooood. It was one of those hyper-realistic dudes, I was driving with my wife to a restaurant that I used to go to as a kid, we were picking up takeout to bring back home. As I was loading it into the car I heard his voice behind me say "Aren't you forgetting something?" I turned around and it was him, and everything else about the situation felt so normal and boring that of course he would be there because he was always there every time we did this. But my brain knew that we had been spending the last few years more or less constantly thinking about the fact that he was gone. It almost always results in me realizing that I'm dreaming, but just this one time it went the other way and my brain said "Oh joy, there must have been some sort of years-long misunderstanding and he's actually been here and fine the entire time!" Then I woke up. Cruelest thing I've ever done to myself, but it's a bit comforting to realize that it's in the realm of normality.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#64

Post by retrac »

Aurornis wrote: post #28
aeturnum wrote: post #17

> We medicalize grief because we fear it. I think this is just incorrect. You are not obligated to seek treatment for most medical problems[1]. The point of medicalizing something is to draw a line between situations where it would be too soon for medical professionals to step in and when people enter a situation where they may need external help. One of the diagnostic criteria, which this article mentions, is that y…

> The point of medicalizing something is to draw a line between situations where it would be too soon for medical professionals to step in The problem is that medical diagnoses and therapy speak have spilled over into common language where they’re so diluted that they’re not accurate any more. For many there is no line drawn anywhere because they are self-diagnosing based on flawed understandings as soon as any feeli…

I'm not sure if this is "human nature" or if it's a specific cultural problem in the modern west. It's certainly true here in Canada too -- everyone uses terms that are really quite heavy duty to describe quite minor things.

I'm deaf. When I tell people this, one of the most common response is "Oh, don't worry. I'm a little bit deaf too." Now not to go policing people on their identities but -- no you're not.

Like what do I need to say? Clinically deaf. Severe-profoundly deaf. Cannot hear a fire alarm without hearing aids?

It's one thing when it's an elderly person. Yes maybe they are in fact a bit deaf too. But for all the people in their 30s or 40s who have said it to me -- the odds they all have moderate or worse hearing loss is nil! Most of the people who are saying it presumably have normal hearing. I understand that they're trying to identify with and not alienate me. But it's such a strange dynamic.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#65

Post by portaouflop »

ryandrake wrote: post #39
Aurornis wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point of medicalizing something is to draw a line between situations where it would be too soon for medical professionals to step in The problem is that medical diagnoses and therapy speak have spilled over into common language where they’re so diluted that they’re not accurate any more. For many there is no line drawn anywhere because they are self-diagnosing based on flawed understandings as soon as any feeli…

I've seen this too among some younger folks and I wonder how much of this is simply standard, run-of-the-mill teenage attention-seeking and exaggeration that's not fully outgrown yet. I guess we'll know when they turn 40 and are still saying things like "I had a panic attack" and "I'm literally shaking rn".

Unc “I'm literally shaking rn” is only ever used ironically. In a culture of ever increasing extremes language follows, that’s all that is to this

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#66

Post by giantg2 »

ryandrake wrote: post #39
Aurornis wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The point of medicalizing something is to draw a line between situations where it would be too soon for medical professionals to step in The problem is that medical diagnoses and therapy speak have spilled over into common language where they’re so diluted that they’re not accurate any more. For many there is no line drawn anywhere because they are self-diagnosing based on flawed understandings as soon as any feeli…

I've seen this too among some younger folks and I wonder how much of this is simply standard, run-of-the-mill teenage attention-seeking and exaggeration that's not fully outgrown yet. I guess we'll know when they turn 40 and are still saying things like "I had a panic attack" and "I'm literally shaking rn".

I think it will continue as it's been turned into socially acceptable and even expected behavior now.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#67

Post by xyzelement »

krapp wrote: post #56
xyzelement wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're right on the word level but I think there's a difference about what significance and insignificance means to these groups. As a religious person, I see my life as insignificant compared to Gd, and compared to the chain of generations, but what I do with my life is extremely significant. As in, whether I bring children into this world and raise them well, is massively significant. So maybe the way to sa…

Do you really believe atheists are incapable of recognizing the significance of children or of caring about them?

No, I don't believe that. I valued children just as much when I was an atheist as when I became religion.

What's significant though is the PREVALENT opinion. 100% of my religious friends want and have kids, while the majority of my secular friends do not. I work in FAANG and previously in finance, so my peers are people who can certainly afford kids and are positioned to take care of them - and yet literally most are choosing to do something else.

I am not commenting on a universal attitude, I am commenting on a significant trend that I think is obvious.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#68

Post by lm28469 »

pleasecloselid wrote: post #43

She has very clearly articulated what we have lost as a culture as we attempt to eliminate any discomfort or inconvenience in our lives because of death. This book really changed my perspective: https://orphanwisdom.com/die-wise/ Dying is a skill, both for the person doing it and the people around them.

I find some comfort in Seneca's letter myself, simple words that takes days to digest: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Moral_letters_to_Lucilius/Let...

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#69

Post by isk517 »

Aurornis wrote: post #28
aeturnum wrote: post #17

> We medicalize grief because we fear it. I think this is just incorrect. You are not obligated to seek treatment for most medical problems[1]. The point of medicalizing something is to draw a line between situations where it would be too soon for medical professionals to step in and when people enter a situation where they may need external help. One of the diagnostic criteria, which this article mentions, is that y…

> The point of medicalizing something is to draw a line between situations where it would be too soon for medical professionals to step in The problem is that medical diagnoses and therapy speak have spilled over into common language where they’re so diluted that they’re not accurate any more. For many there is no line drawn anywhere because they are self-diagnosing based on flawed understandings as soon as any feeli…

The dilution by people with no formal diagnosis become more common is scary because of how it normalizes not seeking help, which is the hardest part of actually having these issues. It creates this illusion that one should be able to treat themselves and that things like sitting at your desk all day thinking it wouldn't be that bad if you died in a car accident, or having your heartrate spike and sweating profusely while you thoughts are paralyzed are normal things that happens regularly to everyone so your inability to deal with them is a personal failing. They are not and if you do feel this way try and seek assistance from a experienced professional.

Re: Grief gets an expiration date, just like us

#70

Post by 47282847 »

In my grief training, it was made pretty clear that typical grieving of a loss takes 3 to 5 years to somehow find to a new normal and start living again, and lasts forever, with phases of varying intensity. It is important to allow all the phases and encourage emotional release so it doesn’t get stuck and somatized. Stuck, unprocessed grief can kill you.

It is common for the first full year to be more in numbness and survival than in strong emotions. The psyche does not want to accept the loss so it pretends it is not real. Anniversaries and such serve as a slow and painful reminder that the person is in fact not there and will never return.

Swinging between emotional denial and waves of anger and intense pain over many years is totally normal, and should be encouraged and supported. Go with your friends into the intensity of their pain. Ask about their loss. Sit with it. Don’t say stuff like “it will pass“. They will love you for it.

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