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When the job search becomes impossible

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Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#61

Post by gdulli »

kfk wrote: post #17

I met many programmers during the boom years of software that straight out refused to develop any type of soft or managerial skills. Forget that, they even refused to maintain good relationships with decision makers (and I did this too, but only once in my carrier), left jobs in bad ways, focused on chasing salary increases every 6 months. And here is the problem. If you have been chasing "easy" salary increases, wor…

> you will eventually end up with a set of tech skills that a kid 20 years younger than you, with no family and so being able to live on lower salary, probably has too.

I was this young hotshot 20 years ago. In hindsight, the skills I had at the time were commodity or even irrelevant compared to the wisdom, life experience, and maturity that took me 20 years to develop and determine how effective I am now. You can't fake or rush those 20 years. (Even though the me of 15 or even 10 years ago wouldn't believe that statement.)

So I agree, although it wasn't really managerial skills that became important for me. It feels more intangible. I got sort of lucky that I didn't have to transition into management as I got older.

But that's not to say that many workplaces won't value the young hotshot anyway. I'm retired but if I was job searching I wouldn't really consider myself in competition with them, I'm not looking for the positions that can be done as effectively by a 28 year old. That's not a matter of job title or seniority, it's matter of finding people and positions that value or need the more subtle strengths that I find most valuable and important and interesting about myself.

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#62

Post by glimshe »

pizzathyme wrote: post #13

> "You’ve spent several months sending out scores of carefully tailored resumes and cover letters for jobs you know you are fully qualified for and would excel at." People should not do this. It is causing so much suffering. In my 6 jobs in my career from college internship to startups to Big Tech, I have never gotten a job from sending an application into a site. It's always been through (somehow) tracking down a pe…

I got my dream job by applying on their website. As a hiring manager, also interviewed many people who got theirs at other companies' websites. Networking is better but website applications used to work alright. This could have changed with AI resumes.

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#63

Post by tcrow »

Sometimes you just need to look locally. Chances are there are positions available close enough to your home that its worth the following effort. I have personally walked into places I was interested in working at and asked for an engineering manager. About 50% of the time, a manager comes out to meet me. I show interest, they show interest (generally, and even if they are not hiring). This has lead to much improved chances of getting an interview over just filling an application or email through a network. People like to see and get a feel for the people they might end up hiring. Face to face puts you ahead of the pack. This technique is critically underutilized. Obviously, if your only interested in remote positions, this won't work very well. If the org is big enough, you can try to locate a nearby satellite branch or office to find a person who can tap you in.

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#64

Post by Yoric »

mschild wrote: post #22
pizzathyme wrote: post #13

> "You’ve spent several months sending out scores of carefully tailored resumes and cover letters for jobs you know you are fully qualified for and would excel at." People should not do this. It is causing so much suffering. In my 6 jobs in my career from college internship to startups to Big Tech, I have never gotten a job from sending an application into a site. It's always been through (somehow) tracking down a pe…

This might work if you already have a network, but otherwise good luck getting through to people on the phone. HR will answer the generic questions, but tell you to apply online. Cold "calling" people on LinkedIn is a shot in the dark. Some people don't mind you doing it, most will ignore you.

You can start building a network by reaching out to alumni, former colleagues, open-source contributors for projects you're contributing to [1], etc.

Hardly ideal, but it's a start.

[1] And if you're not contributing to an open-source project, please do it, it's a great way to learn stuff, improve your CV, network and of course give back.

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#65

Post by fuzzfactor »

afpx wrote: post #9
SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #6

This essay just makes me feel so hopeless about our society. I don’t feel it’s right that employment has such weight in people’s lives that the search causes psychological damage.

It's tough to watch the change when not too long ago a software developer with decent skills could literally submit 5 resumes and end up with 3 good offers.

The only way for anybody to have any good jobs at all is for millions to have none, and/or have nothing resembling formerly respectable pay.

And it's got to last years or there will be no recovery for shareholders from what they've already suffered with a stagnant economy.

In the 1970's it ended up 10x this bad or worse, in most technical fields at the time as well as non-tech.

There was nothing else that could be done except recognize it was a crap shoot.

There will be plenty of millions who do not lose their jobs, some will not even lose much momentum. There will be nowhere else for the "new normal" to coalesce around, after nothing else resembles the old normal for so long.

As before, only the relatively unscathed will write the economic history of these years, and many less-fortunate millions are slated to be forgotten.

The only other alternative is for everybody to take a steep pay cut, and all upwardly-mobile climbers to halt all momentum. What are the odds that could happen this time?

And that still wouldn't allow hiring as many early-career professionals as there will be available for quite some time to come.

Don't worry, employment is not where all the negative outcomes will affect future generations . . .

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#66

Post by JohnFen »

insane_dreamer wrote: post #24
pizzathyme wrote: post #13

> "You’ve spent several months sending out scores of carefully tailored resumes and cover letters for jobs you know you are fully qualified for and would excel at." People should not do this. It is causing so much suffering. In my 6 jobs in my career from college internship to startups to Big Tech, I have never gotten a job from sending an application into a site. It's always been through (somehow) tracking down a pe…

> A form is not going to a hire you, a person is. This is becoming less and less true. > You need to ignore the form and talk to a person. Unless you're lucky, this is no longer going to happen. Getting a job is now becoming much more about luck, circumstances, and who you already know, much like getting your first starring role in a movie -- not about your abilities.

> Getting a job is now becoming much more about luck, circumstances, and who you already know, much like getting your first starring role in a movie -- not about your abilities.

That's not a new thing. It's how it's always been.

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#67

Post by Yoric »

bopbopbop7 wrote: post #36
insane_dreamer wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A form is not going to a hire you, a person is. This is becoming less and less true. > You need to ignore the form and talk to a person. Unless you're lucky, this is no longer going to happen. Getting a job is now becoming much more about luck, circumstances, and who you already know, much like getting your first starring role in a movie -- not about your abilities.

You need luck to have a network now?

Kinda, yeah.

My first job in the industry was in a startup that went belly down. Most of us didn't get much opportunity to network.

Thankfully, I happened to contribute to two open-source projects. One of them was a (then) obscure language called Rust and another one was Firefox. Both contributions eventually turned into career-defining moments for which I'm still reaping benefits 15 years later.

Had I contributed to Vlang and Camino instead, my career would probably have been much less satisfying.

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#68

Post by [deleted] »

jackcosgrove wrote: post #34
TrackerFF wrote: post #12

I've been thinking about job searching lately, maybe a bit too much. I'm employed, so it is not any immediate concern for me, but one has to think ahead. Between age discrimination that starts after 50, and how difficult the job search seemingly is...some people will have to work at least until they're 70. That's a solid 15-20 years more, after the job hunting is an uphill battle. If the work search is hard while you…

It was always my understanding that software careers are shorter than other technical careers, and the higher wages compensate for this. More than compensate, if you invest early. If by FIRE you mean retire in your 50s, I don't think that's an aspiration. That should be an expectation. You might be able to work a full career in this industry, but I wouldn't plan on it.

[deleted]

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#69

Post by registeredcorn »

the_real_cher wrote: post #25
kfk wrote: post #17

I met many programmers during the boom years of software that straight out refused to develop any type of soft or managerial skills. Forget that, they even refused to maintain good relationships with decision makers (and I did this too, but only once in my carrier), left jobs in bad ways, focused on chasing salary increases every 6 months. And here is the problem. If you have been chasing "easy" salary increases, wor…

> It's very, very, very hard to maintain sharp coding skills decade after decade. This is straight up agism and should be banned. It's like saying black people can't code as well as white people. Carmack and Torvalds would disagree with you.

Relax. Opinions aren't that big of a deal.

This isn't twitter. You don't need to demand a ban against the first bruise to your ego.

Re: When the job search becomes impossible

#70

Post by insane_dreamer »

DaveZale wrote: post #2

Hate to say the obvious, but it's all about supply and demand. The field I was working in 30 years ago was "hot" and the hourly wage has dropped at least 5x since then. Sure, in the last 20 years I did "development" work which was related but more advanced (24 hours a day stuff, it's always in your head) - but once those efforts were complete, so were the jobs. My field was laboratory science and I still take solace…

This only works if you had a good job and a decent amount of savings and no family to support.
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