Earlier quoted context omitted.
That describes everyone from Hitler and Mussolini to Mao. They all believed in big government, and wielding it internally.
Yes, it describes everyone who aims to use unrestrained political power to reshape society, i.e. the precise opposite of what "conservatism" actually means.
The Obsolescence of Political Definitions (1991)
61–70 of 138 posts
Re: The Obsolescence of Political Definitions (1991)
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
> IMO, the current US administration seems to be the most left-wing in my lifetime Can you name even a single left-wing policy or rhetorical position of this administration? > but contrived cultural wedge issues seem to have eclipsed actual policy positions in most public discourse, “Cultural wedge issues” are about actual policy domains, and have a real left-right valence. > gets called "conservative" despite its po…
> Can you name even a single left-wing policy or rhetorical position of this administration? Tariffs. Deficit spending. Federalization of law enforcement. Hyperpoliticization of social questions. Government ownership/direction of private industry. > “Cultural wedge issues” are about actual policy domains, and have a real left-right valence. They've not been about actual policy domains until relatively recently. These…
None of those are left wing (or even “more frequently associated with the less right wing of the two major parties in America”)
In fact, in the period where the GOP has been the more right-wing party, deficit spending has been associated more with them being in power.
> Government ownership/direction of private industry.
Fascist corporatism is not left-wing (state ownership as a proxy for and in the interest of the working class is a feature of some versions of leftist theory, but this isn’t something that Trump’s industrial intervention even makes a rhetorical appeal to.)
> > [...] the Republican Party, being out of the White House for the first time in a while and having just taken a Congressional majority after mostly being in the minority for a generation was also emphasizing restraining government and elected officials more than the Right normally has before or since, but that was pretty obviously a tactical adaptation to the immediate circumstances, not the essence of conservatism.
> But no, it actually is the "essence of conservatism" where conservatism is an actual political philosophy, and not an empty term that refers to the haphazard policy preferences of whatever faction a particular political party happens to be pandering to at any given moment.
No, you’ve confused libertarianism/minarchism with conservatism. Conservatism, as an “actual political philosophy”, or rather a broad political orientation which is not a single unified philosophy but is conprised of distinct philosophies tending in the same broad direction, arose in response to and is exactly resistance to the downward, equalizing, leveling drive of enlightment liberalism.
The on-and-off rhetorical appeal to libertarianism by the Right especially when out of power is, exactly, a matter of “whatever faction a particular political party happens to be pandering to at any given moment.”
Re: The Obsolescence of Political Definitions (1991)
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, I think we've all seen the term "socialism" prettymuch destroyed into having no coherent meaning beyond "when government does stuff" for as long as I can remember, for example. I mean, I've seen people decry market-oriented solutions to problems (eg congestion pricing) as "socialism" which is broadly hilarious.
> "socialism" pretty much destroyed into having no coherent meaning beyond "when government does stuff" for as long as I can remember This is actually the best definition, for certain values of government. What's bizarre is that a bunch of people gave communists ownership of the definition of socialism. The communists who never even described it specifically, just refer to it as a mythical state that spontaneously oc…
Re: The Obsolescence of Political Definitions (1991)
#64This is the death of a political definition, I cant give it a label, see OP. It will become a religion after this; only then will we have the violence end in our politics.
I would say the EU pact from 1997 was brilliant. They had to have known of the human costs; but it's over now. We've seen the end. Mind you, yes, there's stillpain to come; but it's too big.
I'm predicting, since history is repeating for like the 6th time, we're still about 10 years out on the end of political violence.
Re: The Obsolescence of Political Definitions (1991)
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think some actually do. And some follow what they thought it meant, or what they thought it should have meant.
> I think some actually do. May I ask who? > And some follow what they thought it meant, or what they thought it should have meant. This isn't contrary to my claim.
(I mean that somewhat ironically - everybody would say that it fits them. But I also mean it somewhat sincerely.)
Re: The Obsolescence of Political Definitions (1991)
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I think some actually do. May I ask who? > And some follow what they thought it meant, or what they thought it should have meant. This isn't contrary to my claim.
Me, of course. (I mean that somewhat ironically - everybody would say that it fits them. But I also mean it somewhat sincerely.)
Re: The Obsolescence of Political Definitions (1991)
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Can you name even a single left-wing policy or rhetorical position of this administration? Tariffs. Deficit spending. Federalization of law enforcement. Hyperpoliticization of social questions. Government ownership/direction of private industry. > “Cultural wedge issues” are about actual policy domains, and have a real left-right valence. They've not been about actual policy domains until relatively recently. These…
> Tariffs. Deficit spending. Federalization of law enforcement. None of those are left wing (or even “more frequently associated with the less right wing of the two major parties in America”) In fact, in the period where the GOP has been the more right-wing party, deficit spending has been associated more with them being in power. > Government ownership/direction of private industry. Fascist corporatism is not left-w…
These are quintessentially left-wing in the context of the past century of American politics.
> Fascist corporatism is not left-wing
Of course it is. It was deliberately designed as an alternative means for achieving socialist ends by socialists disillusioned with Marxism. It's always characterized itself as a "third way", but still one that seeks to radical change society through political force, and in opposition to those who want to conserve the status quo and admit change only through gradual development. The former is the traditional definition of "left" and the latter of "right".
> No, you’ve confused libertarianism/minarchism with conservatism. Conservatism, as an “actual political philosophy”, or rather a broad political orientation which is not a single unified philosophy but is conprised of distinct philosophies tending in the same broad direction, arose in response to and is exactly resistance to the downward, equalizing, leveling drive of enlightment liberalism.
It should be clear that in a US context, I'm referring to specifically Anglo-American conservatism, which does differ from other varieties in its devotion to particular forms of constitutionalism and to economic liberalism, i.e. the Burkean variety, and not to continental forms of conservatism which have had little historical significance in America.
> The on-and-off rhetorical appeal to libertarianism by the Right especially when out of power is, exactly, a matter of “whatever faction a particular political party happens to be pandering to at any given moment.”
The problem is that you're presumptively conflating party with political philosophy even in levying this criticism. In terms of US presidents in my lifetime, I'd regard Carter, Reagan, and Clinton as conservatives, both Bushes and Obama as moderates, Biden as being on the center-left, and Trump as being on the far left.
Actual political philosophy cuts across party lines -- the parties themselves are just coalitions of factions that are mainly aligned due to mutual tactical opposition to the other coalition, and not by any shared worldview. The nature of these coalitions has far more influence on what rhetoric they employ on the campaign trail than it does on what actual policy positions they take once in office.
Re: The Obsolescence of Political Definitions (1991)
#68This is an interesting read, and it makes me want to read more. But the intro could use some context. I have so many questions now.
> But the intro could use some context. What do you mean by that?
The intro paragraph, I think, is trying to use this to its advantage by describing an unfamiliar political landscape with conservatives and parlimentarians and Stalinists and "putschists" (what even is that word?). I barely know what conservativism means as distinct from "whatever the American Republican party does". I clicked on the article because I've observed that liberalism/conservativism/libertarianism/socialism/populism/marxism/fascism/neo___ism/etc. are bandied about more like sports team names to be cheered or derided rather than comprehended, and hoped to understand this phenomenon better.
I'll push through the article eventually, with frequent dictionary lookups for "societas civilis" and "diptych" and "affairs curricula". But it's clearly written for an expert in political philosophy and will take me a long time to do so. I'm an expert in computer engineering and pretty innately talented at understanding that, I'm not an expert in the social sciences and they don't come easily to me. But I still live in a society, and try to participate in its governance as best I can...while neither journalists nor public education have really helped me to get there. I don't observe my peers reading Chomsky, Hayek, Putnam, Piketty, Turchin, and Zinn before they go to the voting booth, but they get one vote each just the same.
I've actually looked it up and found that my local community college offers a "PL230 - Introduction to Political Theory" course, this winter it's held mid-day for full-time students but they're offering it virtually in the evenings next summer so that people who work during the day can participate.
Re: The Obsolescence of Political Definitions (1991)
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, I think we've all seen the term "socialism" prettymuch destroyed into having no coherent meaning beyond "when government does stuff" for as long as I can remember, for example. I mean, I've seen people decry market-oriented solutions to problems (eg congestion pricing) as "socialism" which is broadly hilarious.
> "socialism" pretty much destroyed into having no coherent meaning beyond "when government does stuff" for as long as I can remember This is actually the best definition, for certain values of government. What's bizarre is that a bunch of people gave communists ownership of the definition of socialism. The communists who never even described it specifically, just refer to it as a mythical state that spontaneously oc…
No, that's altruism: putting the group ahead of the individual.
Socialism is when the means of production are socially owned, instead of privately owned. It implicitly is altruistic by nature, but that's of course not guaranteed.
Re: The Obsolescence of Political Definitions (1991)
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Can you name even a single left-wing policy or rhetorical position of this administration? Tariffs. Deficit spending. Federalization of law enforcement. Hyperpoliticization of social questions. Government ownership/direction of private industry. > “Cultural wedge issues” are about actual policy domains, and have a real left-right valence. They've not been about actual policy domains until relatively recently. These…
> Tariffs. Deficit spending. Federalization of law enforcement. None of those are left wing (or even “more frequently associated with the less right wing of the two major parties in America”) In fact, in the period where the GOP has been the more right-wing party, deficit spending has been associated more with them being in power. > Government ownership/direction of private industry. Fascist corporatism is not left-w…
> In fact, in the period where the GOP has been the more right-wing party, deficit spending has been associated more with them being in power.
You're using circular logic: "You can't describe left wing as doing something the GOP does, because I define them to be right wing."