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Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

rykarn.se

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Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#61

Post by whatevaa »

ntnsndr wrote: post #13

I was speaking at a conference recently and was asked to chair the session at the last minute. It was hybrid, so all the speakers needed to share their slides on Zoom. I have been daily driving Linux for 14 years, and this has almost never been a problem (there was a moment with i3 but it seems better). But I hadn't bothered to test this since installing (and generally loving!) PopOS COSMIC. The problem, at root, is…

I have such failures with Windows. Sometimes need reboot to fix it. It's kinda a running joke that most things in Windows are fixed by rebooting.

Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#62

Post by whatevaa »

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #33

All of this was well known when Wayland was developed. They just didn't give a shit about end-users. They had one or two specific things they personally wanted done, and they made sure that was supported, and that's it. And then a few major players decide they're going to push for this new system to become the system, so it's not just "a bad alternative", it's an unavoidably bad fate. This isn't the first case like t…

Linux desktop has never worked for me better than today

Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#64

Post by ac29 »

roenxi wrote: post #50
hwsrtejk wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absurd ideas like "applications shouldn't be able to spy on or manipulate each other without explicit permission from the user".

Wayland, traditionally, has not believed that. It believed "applications shouldn't be able to spy on or manipulate each other" and doesn't give users any mechanism to suggest that they might have permission to do so because the idea of that happening was just not on their radar. I'm not sure about the modern state of Wayland but last time I saw it the situation was terribly messy and I was forced back to X11 because…

> I was forced back to X11 because I rely on screensharing to do my job properly.

Wayland screensharing has worked for a long time. I remember using it early in the pandemic when the entire working world seemed to move to Zoom/etc for meetings. So, at least ~5 years?

Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#65

Post by yjftsjthsd-h »

charcircuit wrote: post #36
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

xwayland exists for application compatibility, but is essentially worthless for a11y tools

Accessibility wasn't strongly broken so I didn't think that commentor was talking about that.

The article we're talking under is titled "Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living" and talks about how Wayland breaks a11y tools. The root comment says breaking backward compat is bad. What would they be possible be talking about except for Wayland breaking existing X11-based a11y tools?

Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#66

Post by arp242 »

rendaw wrote: post #26

On the flip side, there's some software that works (somewhat) with wayland but deliberately breaks compatibility. For instance, Scribus uses QT which supports wayland, but they hardcoded a check to explicitly detect wayland and exit if it's found. You get the generic QT "supported backends" message that lists wayland, but if you actually try to use it the logic resets your choice, gaslighting you into thinking you ty…

Scribus doesn't "deliberately" break compatibility; it was completely unusable with Wayland and they added friendly message. It also doesn't really go out of its way to do so as you're suggesting – it just checks Application::platformName() == "wayland" and that's it.

Maybe it's better now with Wayland and that check can be removed. I don't know.

See: https://bugs.scribus.net/view.php?id=16998 and https://github.com/scribusproject/scribus/commit/74d8d7ef7

Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#68

Post by cmxch »

dismalaf wrote: post #9
jrm4 wrote: post #8

Again. ANY Linux project that strongly breaks backwards compatibility. Not surprised that it's still messing with people even this late in the game.

No one is forcing anyone to use Wayland. There's DEs that use X11 and have no plans to move to Wayland. Also no one is preventing this app from working, for whatever reasons the devs just haven't got it working. Open source software is about freedom. Freedom to say fuck backwards compatibility or freedom to use X11 for the next 100 years. Also the freedom for the X11 devs to say they don't want to maintain it anymore…

Intentional breaking of Xorg to frustrate use isn’t freedom. It’s harm.

Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#69

Post by dismalaf »

cmxch wrote: post #68
dismalaf wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is forcing anyone to use Wayland. There's DEs that use X11 and have no plans to move to Wayland. Also no one is preventing this app from working, for whatever reasons the devs just haven't got it working. Open source software is about freedom. Freedom to say fuck backwards compatibility or freedom to use X11 for the next 100 years. Also the freedom for the X11 devs to say they don't want to maintain it anymore…

Intentional breaking of Xorg to frustrate use isn’t freedom. It’s harm.

Who broke it? It works. It's still there. Plenty of distros use it still...

The maintainers just got sick of maintaining it and moved on...

Re: Wayland breaks the tools I use to make a living

#70

Post by light_hue_1 »

ac29 wrote: post #64
roenxi wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wayland, traditionally, has not believed that. It believed "applications shouldn't be able to spy on or manipulate each other" and doesn't give users any mechanism to suggest that they might have permission to do so because the idea of that happening was just not on their radar. I'm not sure about the modern state of Wayland but last time I saw it the situation was terribly messy and I was forced back to X11 because…

> I was forced back to X11 because I rely on screensharing to do my job properly. Wayland screensharing has worked for a long time. I remember using it early in the pandemic when the entire working world seemed to move to Zoom/etc for meetings. So, at least ~5 years?

This is a great example of how horrible the situation is under Wayland.

Screen sharing sometimes works. Sometimes doesn't. For example: https://www.reddit.com/r/kde/comments/1ebwaz4/is_wayland_scr...

There are countless such threads. Something that always worked perfectly out of the box now has endless workarounds per compositor/desktop system that you use.

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