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Y Combinator files brief supporting Epic Games, says store fees stifle startups

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Re: Y Combinator files brief supporting Epic Games, says store fees stifle startups

#61

Post by frollogaston »

radley wrote: post #24
sonofhans wrote: post #6

[flagged]

> if the App Store had never existed? ...even though it lays golden eggs Why is the general rebuttal always binary? Be grateful that it exists at all! It lays golden eggs! No, they're just eggs. A few of us are lucky to sell a lot of eggs. That doesn't make them golden. The true gold eggs are grown despite the store (Netflix, YouTube, OpenAI). Imagine an App Store that only lets you make black and white apps, but the…

Apple invested so much in their platform because of the expectation that they'd get to run it the way they want, including taking a cut

Re: Y Combinator files brief supporting Epic Games, says store fees stifle startups

#62

Post by sokoloff »

maximus_01 wrote: post #55
addaon wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Starups cannot choose between different ways of accessing willing customers over iOS What? They can offer an SPA, or a traditional web page. They can offer a hardware device. They can make an android app compelling enough to convert users.

You are really trying to say that for a startup trying to build software, say a productivity app or whatever, they should consider launching their own hardware device? They are very different things and would basically make indie development impossible (or really any software company that can't raise hundreds of millions to billions)

You’re arguing that Apple’s App Store, even with its commission, is a better business proposition.

I agree, and from that conclude that Apple’s earned their commission/fees.

Re: Y Combinator files brief supporting Epic Games, says store fees stifle startups

#63

Post by Aloisius »

nickthegreek wrote: post #33
furyofantares wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that an Apple thing? People trying to monetize anything they make seem to vastly outnumber those of us who just want to make stuff for other people to enjoy. When I turn off an adblocker I'm shocked how many hobby projects spam ads at their users to try to make a few pennies. It feels like a social issue.

Giving away free software on the appstore is gonna cost you $100/yr developer license. Sure, the more apps you make dilutes the cost, but it doesn’t seem like that inviting of a space for maintained free apps.

Free for non-profits though.

I'm a little surprised there isn't an open source non-profit set up to act as an umbrella for open source iOS app development.

Re: Y Combinator files brief supporting Epic Games, says store fees stifle startups

#64

Post by rootusrootus »

If there was more than a duopoly in smartphones, I'd say Apple should be able to have whatever horrible app policy they want, so long as it is clearly communicated to everyone including customers. Let the market decide.

But that's not where we are. I think it makes sense to treat both Apple and Google as de facto monopolies with respect to the smartphone market, and impose some regulation on what they have to allow and how much they can charge for it.

Re: Y Combinator files brief supporting Epic Games, says store fees stifle startups

#65

Post by rootusrootus »

dangus wrote: post #47
jmull wrote: post #45

I think Apple should mostly be allowed to run as crappy an App Store as they want. But people should also be able to get apps from whatever store they want. (Ground rules all app stored would have to follow based on technical, security, and legal concerns would be fine too, IMO.) Of course Apple would never go for that, so we'll end up with whatever mess legal processes can wring out of them.

You say “they would never go for this” but they do it on the Mac. It’s funny how they are their own counter example. They have no leg to stand on.

I don't think the Mac is a great counter example. It started as a fully open platform, so the expectations are different. The iPhone was never anything other than an appliance, Apple is not trying to turn an open garden into a walled one, because it started that way.

Re: Y Combinator files brief supporting Epic Games, says store fees stifle startups

#66

Post by nsagent »

ryandrake wrote: post #48
johnecheck wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an argument for gating the free-for-all behind a setting technical users can find, not demanding 30% of revenue if a dev would like access to apple users. The security aspect is real, but this is really about maximizing profits by monopolizing access to anyone with an iPhone.

When a normal user is highly motivated to install software, there is no such distinction from a "technical user". He wants to install AnimeWallpapersTotallyNotATrojan.app. The operating system disallows it. Then he just does a search for how to install AnimeWallpapersTotallyNotATrojan.app on iOS, and finds 20 tutorials walking him through the steps to ungate the install. You can make the expert mode dialog say "Click…

Then those people deserve what they get as a result. People should have autonomy to make less than optimal decisions if they want.

And to provide a counterpoint, my dad can barely navigate his iPhone. I literally spent an hour on the phone with him when he was lost and needed directions; it took 20 minutes to guide him to open the messages app so he could read the address I sent. Someone that clueless isn't searching the internet to figure out workarounds for installing anything.

Re: Y Combinator files brief supporting Epic Games, says store fees stifle startups

#67

Post by maximus_01 »

sokoloff wrote: post #62
maximus_01 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are really trying to say that for a startup trying to build software, say a productivity app or whatever, they should consider launching their own hardware device? They are very different things and would basically make indie development impossible (or really any software company that can't raise hundreds of millions to billions)

You’re arguing that Apple’s App Store, even with its commission, is a better business proposition. I agree, and from that conclude that Apple’s earned their commission/fees.

There is a limit to this sort of logic though. Don't get me wrong, I'm generally pro free markets. But: A) Apple's policies make some products completely unviable (anything with a gross margin less than 30%). Even for products at say 40% gross margin, Apple as a storefront is taking 75% of the gross margin pool (ie 30% to Apple, 10% to developer). This in my view is direct consumer harm. B) Apple acts egregiously and restricts what should be basic free speech. For instance, app developers not being able to even mention they have to pay Apple (let alone being able to direct customers to their own website etc). To me this is the biggest one - I could probably live with everything else more if developers at least could show customers where their fees were going etc. C) Apple has changed the rules over time, or at least how they enforce the rules (by trying to force more and more apps to pay the 30% - eg what they did to Patreon)

Re: Y Combinator files brief supporting Epic Games, says store fees stifle startups

#68

Post by frollogaston »

athrun wrote: post #57
chupchap wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why transaction fee is a percentage as it takes the cost of transferring money is the same irrespective of the amount. There should be a reasonable cap. For example 2% for any transaction less than $2, and $0.2 for any larger transactions. Why do we still have this charade of collecting money and then giving some pittance back to the customer in the form of credit card points?

It's about provisioning for credit losses. Roughly speaking, when a transaction needs to be unwound, if the merchant cannot cover the reversal (for example, because it has defaulted), then the payment processor needs to pony up instead. Note that this isn't an edge case, this is something that happens every day. If the payment processor defaults (gasp!), then the processor's sponsor bank needs to cover it. This is wh…

I wish there were a "the customer is always wrong" way of paying digitally, so that there's almost no fee. Right now the only way is cash.

Re: Y Combinator files brief supporting Epic Games, says store fees stifle startups

#69

Post by jchw »

rootusrootus wrote: post #64

If there was more than a duopoly in smartphones, I'd say Apple should be able to have whatever horrible app policy they want, so long as it is clearly communicated to everyone including customers. Let the market decide. But that's not where we are. I think it makes sense to treat both Apple and Google as de facto monopolies with respect to the smartphone market, and impose some regulation on what they have to allow a…

This whole situation is frustrating. Even if there were eight or twelve companies all competing fairly, I'm not sure it would matter: if Apple's approach makes hand-over-fist more money, even though it is much worse for consumers in many regards, it has the chance to unfairly win and for vendors that follow Apple's lead to out-compete vendors that don't. (Don't imagine this world, try to find the parallels you've personally experienced; you know they're out there.)

Of course today, we're getting to the point where governments are going to probably start softly relying on citizens having smartphones that are either Android or iOS. This is terrible and completely the wrong way to go; it would be much better to depend on standards that anyone could implement. Even progressive web apps would be a better outcome than Android/iOS apps. Getting to this point definitely puts both Apple and Google in privileged positions wherein they pretty much do have to be treated like defacto monopolies, but I'm also pretty sure this isn't the outcome we want either.

Re: Y Combinator files brief supporting Epic Games, says store fees stifle startups

#70

Post by matheusmoreira »

jmull wrote: post #45

I think Apple should mostly be allowed to run as crappy an App Store as they want. But people should also be able to get apps from whatever store they want. (Ground rules all app stored would have to follow based on technical, security, and legal concerns would be fine too, IMO.) Of course Apple would never go for that, so we'll end up with whatever mess legal processes can wring out of them.

> But people should also be able to get apps from whatever store they want.

This the answer. The app store monopoly doesn't really matter, the real tyranny is needing Apple's cryptographic blessing to run software on our own computers. This should be literally illegal. Restore our computer freedom and their app store rent seeking becomes irrelevant.

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