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The Whispering Earring

croissanthology.com

61–70 of 99 posts

Re: The Whispering Earring

#61
This parable reminds me a bit of Nozick's "tale of the slave"[1] in its rhetorical sleight of hand: the reader is meant to be mesmerized by the slow transition to an "obvious" conclusion, which obscures the larger inconsistency.

In both cases, the outcome is only convincing if the story makes you forget your grounding: democracy isn't slavery (contra Nozick) and the earring is clearly not always right unless you're the most basic kind of utility monster.

[1]: https://rintintin.colorado.edu/~vancecd/phil215/Nozick.pdf

Re: The Whispering Earring

#62

I'm not actually sure how horrifying this is. It sounds like it's just a better executive planner to achieve your goals. As long as they are still your goals, surely you'd want the best executive planner available. I would say it's the goals that are important, not the limited way in which I work out how to achieve them. It would certainly be horrifying if I were slowly tricked into giving up my goals and values, but…

You surrender your self in exchange for your goals. With the right goals, that could be a worthy sacrifice. But of course it is a sacrifice.

Imagine doing a crossword while a voice whispers the correct letter to enter for each cell. You'd definitely finish it a lot faster and without making mistakes. Crossword answers are public knowledge, and people still work them out instead of looking them up. They don't just want to solve them; they want to solve them theirselves. That's what is lost here.

Re: The Whispering Earring

#63

> It is not a taskmaster, telling you what to do in order to achieve some foreign goal. It always tells you what will make you happiest....The earring is never wrong. > There are no recorded cases of a wearer regretting following the earring’s advice, and there are no recorded cases of a wearer not regretting disobeying the earring. The earring is always right. > ...The wearer lives an abnormally successful life, usu…

We are told:

>"It does not always give the best advice possible in a situation. It will not necessarily make its wearer King, or help her solve the miseries of the world. But its advice is always better than what the wearer would have come up with on her own."

I think one very simple explanation would be that this comes down to a matter of exploration vs exploitation. Since it is only giving "better" advice, and not even 'locally optimal', there is reason to favor exploring vs merely following the advice unquestioningly.

A more complex, but ultimately comprehensive answer, is that free will consists, at least in one aspect, in the ability not only to choose one's goals or means, but also what _aspect_ of those various options to consider "good" or "better".

And if one were to say that all such considerations ultimately resolve back to a fundamental desire to be "happy", to me, this seems to be hand-waving, rather than addressing the argument, because different people have different definitions of the "happy" end-state. If these differences were attributed fully to biology & environment, the story loses its impact, because there was never free will in the first place. If, while reading the story, we adopt a view that genuine free will exists, and hold some kind of agnosticism about the possible means by which that can be so, then it seems reasonable to attribute at least some of the differences in what the "happy" end-state looks like to the choices made by the people, themselves.

Given that kind of freedom, unless one has truly perfect knowledge (beyond the partial knowledge contained in the advice of the earring), the pursuit of one's goals seems to unavoidably entail some regrets. And with perfect knowledge, well... The kind of 'freedom' attributed, for example, to God by philosophers like Thomas Aquinas, is explicitly only analogous to our own, and is understood to be an unchanging condition, rather than a sequential act.

(As a final note: One might wonder what this 'freedom to choose aspects' approaches as an 'asymptotic state' -- that is, for an immortal person. And this leads to metaphysical concerns -- of course, with some things 'smuggled in' by the presumption of genuine freedom, already. Provided one agrees that human nature undeniably provides some structure to ultimate desires/"happiness", the idea of virtue ethics follows naturally, and from there many philosophers have arrived at similar notions of some kind of apotheosis as a stable end-state, as well as the contrary state of some kind of scattering or decay of the mind...)

Re: The Whispering Earring

#64

I'm not actually sure how horrifying this is. It sounds like it's just a better executive planner to achieve your goals. As long as they are still your goals, surely you'd want the best executive planner available. I would say it's the goals that are important, not the limited way in which I work out how to achieve them. It would certainly be horrifying if I were slowly tricked into giving up my goals and values, but…

You surrender your self in exchange for your goals. With the right goals, that could be a worthy sacrifice. But of course it is a sacrifice. Imagine doing a crossword while a voice whispers the correct letter to enter for each cell. You'd definitely finish it a lot faster and without making mistakes. Crossword answers are public knowledge, and people still work them out instead of looking them up. They don't just wan…

This is associating the self with the thing that decides how best to achieve goals (the earring / the part of your brain that works out how to achieve a goal), while I'm saying that I think I would associate the self much more with the thing that decides what the goals are.

> they don't just want to solve them; they want to solve them theirselves. That's what is lost here.

I think in this story, the earring would not solve the crossword for you, if for some reason your goal was to solve the crossword yourself.

Re: The Whispering Earring

#65
post #53

That's a cute story, I certainly like its tone of mystery. However, the premise seems a bit wrong (or at least the narrator is wrong). If your brain actually degenerates from usage of the ring (and is no longer used in daily life, acting only reflexively), the premise that you are the happiest from following the ring might be flat out wrong. I think happiness (I tend to think in terms of well-being, which let's say r…

Suppose you had a concrete definition of "happiness", as some seek a concrete definition of "consciousness". That implies that it could be maximized. Perhaps along a particular subdimension of a multidimensional concept, but still, some aspect of it could be maximized. What would such a maximization look like in the extrema? Could a benzene ring be the happiest thing in the universe? It's really easy to imagine some…

Also, more to the point of your observation: we should be indeed very careful about any extreme and any maximization, because I presume when we maximize a lot we tend to bump into limitations of the metric or theories employed. So we should only maximize up to a region of fairly high philosophical confidence, and this is why we need progress in philosophy, psychology, philosophy of arts, philosophy of culture, neurophilosophy, etc.. in lockstep with technological progress -- because technology tends to allow very easy maximization of simplified models of meaning, which may rapidly break down.

I think one example might be that in medieval times maximizing joy and comfort could be a pretty good heuristic in a harsh life of labor. Those days we actually perhaps have to seek out some discomfort now and then, otherwise we'd be locked in our homes or bed ridden with all affordances some of us have; we have to force ourselves to exercise and not eat comfort food all the time; etc.. I think some hard drugs are a good example as well, a kind of technology that allows maximizing desire/pleasure in a way that is clearly void and does not seem associated with overall good experiences long term. An important fact is that our desires do not necessarily follow what is good; our desires are no omniscient/omnibelevolent oracles (they're simply a limited part of our minds).

We need to put thought/effort into discovering and then enacting what is good in robust, wise, careful (but not too careful), etc. ways. Let's build an awesome society and awesome life for all beings :)

Re: The Whispering Earring

#66
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything that causes huge suffering, like forcing eugenics on people, is obviously not utilitarian because suffering has negative utility. Unless you mean things like parents choosing to screen for Down syndrome, which is not what most people call "eugenics" since it's completely voluntary.

That's just, like, your utility function, maaaaaaan. I joke, but that actually is the problem. I mean, look at you! Even trying to disclaim eugenics you can't manage not to espouse it, just in the "positive" or "voluntary" or "new eugenics" or "liberal eugenics" variety that bothers people less than all the others. I mean, I get why a programmable system of ethics appeals to programmers, just as a mathematical one to…

So you're saying it should be illegal to test for Down syndrome in utero?

Because that's a common practice in most developed countries. And it hasn't led to Nazi Germany in those countries.

Re: The Whispering Earring

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guess we’ll have to just take your word for it - I found this one to be a nice little read, reminds me a bit of Borges.

Hey, don't take my word for it. Do you own research into worse ideologies you'd like to adapt. I'm just planting a seed.

Don't take my word for it. Do your own research into whose ideologies you'd like to adapt.(*)

Re: The Whispering Earring

#68
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just, like, your utility function, maaaaaaan. I joke, but that actually is the problem. I mean, look at you! Even trying to disclaim eugenics you can't manage not to espouse it, just in the "positive" or "voluntary" or "new eugenics" or "liberal eugenics" variety that bothers people less than all the others. I mean, I get why a programmable system of ethics appeals to programmers, just as a mathematical one to…

So you're saying it should be illegal to test for Down syndrome in utero? Because that's a common practice in most developed countries. And it hasn't led to Nazi Germany in those countries.

I'm saying you should own yourself a eugenicist and at least be honest about that, rather than strive to advance a heterodox and unappealing, actually rather amoral and inhuman, ideology through instrumental deceit. You certainly should not do so on the backs of parents facing what I understand can be one of a lifetime's more difficult decisions.

You know as well as I do suffering under utilitarianism has exactly the value the advocate of the moment cares to give it at the moment, whether that be negative, neutral, or vastly to the greater good. Why even attempt such a trivially obvious lie?

Re: The Whispering Earring

#69
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying it should be illegal to test for Down syndrome in utero? Because that's a common practice in most developed countries. And it hasn't led to Nazi Germany in those countries.

I'm saying you should own yourself a eugenicist and at least be honest about that, rather than strive to advance a heterodox and unappealing, actually rather amoral and inhuman, ideology through instrumental deceit. You certainly should not do so on the backs of parents facing what I understand can be one of a lifetime's more difficult decisions. You know as well as I do suffering under utilitarianism has exactly the…

> parents facing what I understand can be one of a lifetime's more difficult decisions.

Do you believe that parents who choose to terminate a downs fetus are evil/utilitarian?

Or are the doctors who perform the testing/abortion the evil/utilitarian ones?

Or the lawmakers who allow such testing/abortion to be legal?

Where exactly is the responsibility for being evil/utilitarian in your mind?

Re: The Whispering Earring

#70
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying you should own yourself a eugenicist and at least be honest about that, rather than strive to advance a heterodox and unappealing, actually rather amoral and inhuman, ideology through instrumental deceit. You certainly should not do so on the backs of parents facing what I understand can be one of a lifetime's more difficult decisions. You know as well as I do suffering under utilitarianism has exactly the…

> parents facing what I understand can be one of a lifetime's more difficult decisions. Do you believe that parents who choose to terminate a downs fetus are evil/utilitarian? Or are the doctors who perform the testing/abortion the evil/utilitarian ones? Or the lawmakers who allow such testing/abortion to be legal? Where exactly is the responsibility for being evil/utilitarian in your mind?

What? How does any of this follow from anything I've said? What's utilitarian about demanding a scapegoat for something that isn't even indictable?

I'm not criticizing parents' decisions, but yours. This specifically includes your using the sorrow of others, in this case parents faced with a harrowing dilemma, as an excuse for your own behavior, rather than demonstrate anything resembling the courage of your supposed convictions.

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