Live data from Hacker News

How Hyper built a 1M-accurate indoor GPS

andrewhart.me

61–70 of 75 posts

Re: How Hyper built a 1M-accurate indoor GPS

#61
Awesome breakdown of the challenges of indoor navigation! One thing I was curious about... given that many modern phones now have UWB radios built in, was UWB ever considered as part of the solution stack? From what I understand UWB can get to sub meter accuracy, and I know it's used in several sports applications where precise tracking is really critical.

Is the constraint more about infrastructure (installing anchors, device compatibility, power) or something else that made you lean towards WiFi + SLAM fusion instead?

Re: How Hyper built a 1M-accurate indoor GPS

#62
post #45
post #3

How does your system handle the massive variance in sensor quality (accelerometer, gyro, WiFi radio) between a high-end iPhone and a budget Android device? Does the 1m accuracy hold up across the board, or does it degrade gracefully? Getting this right seems critical for scaling to a 'billion people'

Peripheral chips aren't differentiated by user values like the end products that use them. You don't get more preciser sensors in high end phones. Everyone gets the same thing. You pay more only for more materials. Sensors that are actually a lot better than standard offerings would also be subject to and/ofs of ITAR or EAR or MTCR or local equivalents thereof, so progress in IMU appears to have been stagnating a bit…

There's a fair bit of quality difference between different chips and better chips have gotten cheaper. More importantly, default filtering quality has improved with more powerful uCs on the IMU package, which is what most cheap phone vendors are probably using.

The ITAR stuff is way more fun though. It's great to read between the lines for the intended customer in the datasheet.

Re: How Hyper built a 1M-accurate indoor GPS

#63
Huge respect to anybody who ships a product, even software. I have yet to use any indoor navigation or even have that offered, but it would be nice. Question is, is SLAM the correct term? I thought mapping meant like the device doesn't have any prior knowledge of the environment and is, well, mapping it. This more feels like sensor fusion with a kalman filter.

Re: How Hyper built a 1M-accurate indoor GPS

#65

Honestly, I've wanted a system for a while where shops can provide a map, and I can search for an item and it will show me where in the shop that item is. I don't think I've ever been in a shop big enough where I'd need satnav to tell me how to get there though, is that an American thing?

Tesco in the UK literally has this but only for staff. If you work for Tesco you can access any shop, view a map, view where stock is on a shelf, check stock numbers and expected delivery and all that stuff. Things that would absolutely be an amazing QOL improvement for any shopper. But they won't let you have it because they WANT you to bumble your way around a shop. They don't want you to know where things are. Tha…

I was going to shout out Tesco specifically, for a similar feature they have on their website/app in Ireland/UK.

If you find a product's page, there's an "other items on this shelf" section which shows items that are located next to it. It's probably not intended to help you locate things, but it's incredibly helpful for it.

Adds way more things for you to notice and tell you're in the right location. Same haystack, more needles.

Re: How Hyper built a 1M-accurate indoor GPS

#67
Having used this and other localization techniques for large indoor robot fleets over the past decade, the hard part seems to be reliability. It was relatively easy to get a sensor fusion solution to work but much harder to get it to work consistently.

Drift is one issue but the other gremlins also cause problems with repeatability: initial localization errors (wrong aisle), electromagnetic environment change (wifi strength is not static), physical environment change (if using optical or lidar).

I think this page is a nice intro to the wifi localization space and the website has an exciting tech startup vibe. But I think if you want to really capture the undivided attention of my peers: find a clear, compelling way to demonstrate that it’s robust and repeatable. For example, walk the same real-world space twice a day for a month, stitch together the tracks in a time lapse, and promise you haven’t cherry picked the results. Especially important is demonstrating this in areas with long, repetitive aisles (grocery stores, hardware stores, warehouses, etc.) That would go far! Good luck on being acquired!

Re: How Hyper built a 1M-accurate indoor GPS

#68
post #36

This is a very cool project / startup! I'm curious, how do you get the ground truth data? Is that just you marking down where you are as you walk through the store?

Thank you! I tried to keep it interesting but not get lost in rabbit holes.

We have around 300 hours of ground-truth data now, in 1-second intervals, which we use for algorithm training and refinement. The same as performing a survey, our team marks their location on the map, then walks to the next location, and through post-processing we can correct any errors and interpolate the locations in between. You can see this process in the diagram with the large black dots, where the user marked their location.

Re: How Hyper built a 1M-accurate indoor GPS

#69

How fast do the WiFi signal strength maps get out of date? Just someone changing the angle of an antenna or shifting a pile of stock near the router has to have a pretty big impact on signal strength. And obviously a WiFi system upgrade where all the Mac addresses change must be a fairly big change and effectively gives a full service outage for all the users till you remap.

We've had the solution live in stores for years without any issue. Our algorithms can clean up and filter out unreliable data, based on all of the other data we have, from other APs, from previous data etc..

If they re-fit the WiFi, which they might spend a month doing once every 5-10 years, it would need a re-survey, which could take 1-2 hours. But thankfully no new infrastructure.

Re: How Hyper built a 1M-accurate indoor GPS

#70

Awesome breakdown of the challenges of indoor navigation! One thing I was curious about... given that many modern phones now have UWB radios built in, was UWB ever considered as part of the solution stack? From what I understand UWB can get to sub meter accuracy, and I know it's used in several sports applications where precise tracking is really critical. Is the constraint more about infrastructure (installing ancho…

Great question. Partly on device compatibility, but mostly that we can achieve an amazing, reliable experience right now without those anchors. If we weren't getting the accuracy we needed from our current methods, we would have to look at alternatives like UWB and consider the trade-offs.
Post reply on HN