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AI could have written this: Birth of a classist slur in knowledge work [pdf]

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Re: AI could have written this: Birth of a classist slur in knowledge work [pdf]

#61

Post by kazinator »

lexicality wrote: post #55
kazinator wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That can't be it. Cretin traces back to the 18th century. Etymonline places woke into the 2010s.

Doesn't matter when the word was created, in the same way furries use ":3" to signal they're a furry, people now use "woke" as a pejorative to signify that they're a member of the "alt-right". I'd suggest avoiding that word unless that's the group membership you want to be advertising.

That is false. Woke liberals and their insane ideas are widely despised by people from all over the political map. Paul Graham has observed that "wokeness is in retreat".

https://paulgraham.com/woke.html

Now, some alt right are acting like wokeness is not in retreat, and constitutes some kind of large and growing threat, so that aligning against it is a major priority.

However, that doesn't mean everyone who uses the word is partaking in an alt right anti-woke frenzy.

Re: AI could have written this: Birth of a classist slur in knowledge work [pdf]

#62

Post by kelseyfrog »

miningape wrote: post #43
kelseyfrog wrote: post #8

While it would have been a better paper if the author collaborated with a sociologist, it would have also be less likely to be taken seriously by the HN for the same class anxieties that its title is founded on.

Excuse us for expecting evidence and intellectual rigour. :D I've taken a number of university Sociology courses and from those experiences I came to the opinion that Sociology's current iteration is really just grievance airing in an academic tone. It doesn't really justify it's own existence outside of being a Buzzfeed for academics. I'm not even talking about slightly more rigorous subjects such as Psychology or P…

My exposure to Sociology and Psychology at university made me understand that HN's resistance to sociology stems from the discomfort of being confronted with uncomfortable truths. It's easier to discount sociology than deal with these truths. I get it. I used to be that way too.

Re: AI could have written this: Birth of a classist slur in knowledge work [pdf]

#63

Post by renewiltord »

throwawaybob420 wrote: post #23
renewiltord wrote: post #11

This is just like the way some people decided that "Blue Check" should be an insult on Twitter. Occasionally people still say it but almost everyone ignores it. Fads like this are common on the Internet. It's just like any other clique of people: a few people accidentally taste-make as a bunch of replicators simply repeat mindless things over and over again "slop" "mask-off moment" "enshittification" "ghoulish". Just…

Sounds like something a blue checker would say. And yes, if you pay for Twitter you’re going to clowned on. And what the hell is that segue into fedoras? The entire meme of them is because stereotypical clueless individually took fedoras to be the pinnacle of fashion, while disregarding nearly everything else about not only their outfit, but about their bodies. This entire comment reeks of not actually understanding…

The point is that Internet people are weird and have their own fads. These so-called “slurs” are meaningless. It’s just like perhaps there’s some middle-school class somewhere that’s decided that white shoes are lame. The majority of the world doesn’t care.

These fads are transitory. The people participating think the fads are important but they’re just fads. Most of them are just aping the other guy. The Internet guys think they’re having an opinion but really it’s just flock behaviour and will change.

Once upon a time everyone on the Internet hated gauges (earrings that space out the earlobe) and before that it was hipsters.

These are like the Harlem Shake. There is no meaning to it. People are just doing as others do. It’ll pass.

Re: AI could have written this: Birth of a classist slur in knowledge work [pdf]

#64

Post by strangecasts »

satisfice wrote: post #13

This paper presents an elaborate straw-man argument. It does not faithfully represent the legitimate concerns of reasonable people about the persistent and irresponsible application of AI in knowledge work. Generative AI produces work that is voluminous and difficult to check. It presents such challenges to people who apply it that they, in practice, do not adequately validate the output. The users of this technology…

> Generative AI produces work that is voluminous and difficult to check. It presents such challenges to people who apply it that they, in practice, do not adequately validate the output.

As a matter of scope I could understand leaving the social understanding of "AI makes errors" separate from technical evaluations of models, but the thing that really horrified me is that the author apparently does not think past experience should be a concern in other fields:

> AI both frustrates the producer/consumer dichotomy and intermediates access to information processing, thus reducing professional power. In response, through shaming, professionals direct their ire at those they see as pretenders. Doctors have always derided home remedies, scientists have derided lay theories, sacerdotal colleges have derided folk mythologies and cosmogonies as heresy – the ability of individuals to “produce” their own healing, their own knowledge, their own salvation. [...]

If you don't permit that scientists often experiencing crank "lay theories" is a reason for initial skepticism, can you really explain this as anything other than anti-intellectualism?

Re: AI could have written this: Birth of a classist slur in knowledge work [pdf]

#65

Post by throwawaybob420 »

kazinator wrote: post #61
lexicality wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't matter when the word was created, in the same way furries use ":3" to signal they're a furry, people now use "woke" as a pejorative to signify that they're a member of the "alt-right". I'd suggest avoiding that word unless that's the group membership you want to be advertising.

That is false. Woke liberals and their insane ideas are widely despised by people from all over the political map. Paul Graham has observed that "wokeness is in retreat". https://paulgraham.com/woke.html Now, some alt right are acting like wokeness is not in retreat, and constitutes some kind of large and growing threat, so that aligning against it is a major priority. However, that doesn't mean everyone who uses the…

Oh my god who gives a fuck about what Paul Graham has to say about “woke”.

Saying “woke” in any context to attack a particular idea or ideology makes you _sound_ like your engaging in American culture war bullshit.

Re: AI could have written this: Birth of a classist slur in knowledge work [pdf]

#66

Post by lexicality »

kazinator wrote: post #61
lexicality wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't matter when the word was created, in the same way furries use ":3" to signal they're a furry, people now use "woke" as a pejorative to signify that they're a member of the "alt-right". I'd suggest avoiding that word unless that's the group membership you want to be advertising.

That is false. Woke liberals and their insane ideas are widely despised by people from all over the political map. Paul Graham has observed that "wokeness is in retreat". https://paulgraham.com/woke.html Now, some alt right are acting like wokeness is not in retreat, and constitutes some kind of large and growing threat, so that aligning against it is a major priority. However, that doesn't mean everyone who uses the…

Hey, I didn't say you were alt right, just that most people will assume you are if you use that word.

Re: AI could have written this: Birth of a classist slur in knowledge work [pdf]

#67

Post by miningape »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #62
miningape wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse us for expecting evidence and intellectual rigour. :D I've taken a number of university Sociology courses and from those experiences I came to the opinion that Sociology's current iteration is really just grievance airing in an academic tone. It doesn't really justify it's own existence outside of being a Buzzfeed for academics. I'm not even talking about slightly more rigorous subjects such as Psychology or P…

My exposure to Sociology and Psychology at university made me understand that HN's resistance to sociology stems from the discomfort of being confronted with uncomfortable truths. It's easier to discount sociology than deal with these truths. I get it. I used to be that way too.

Sure, but what evidence is there of that claim? Do you have any falsifiable/empirical studies you can cite?

Re: AI could have written this: Birth of a classist slur in knowledge work [pdf]

#68

Post by kelseyfrog »

miningape wrote: post #67
kelseyfrog wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My exposure to Sociology and Psychology at university made me understand that HN's resistance to sociology stems from the discomfort of being confronted with uncomfortable truths. It's easier to discount sociology than deal with these truths. I get it. I used to be that way too.

Sure, but what evidence is there of that claim? Do you have any falsifiable/empirical studies you can cite?

Of course. But my only requirement is that we pre-register what evidence will change your mind. Fair?

Re: AI could have written this: Birth of a classist slur in knowledge work [pdf]

#69

Post by miningape »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #68
miningape wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but what evidence is there of that claim? Do you have any falsifiable/empirical studies you can cite?

Of course. But my only requirement is that we pre-register what evidence will change your mind. Fair?

The study should tackle these questions in one form or another:

1. What specific, measurable phenomenon would constitute 'discomfort with uncomfortable truths' versus legitimate methodological concerns?

2. How would we distinguish between the two empirically?

I'd expect a study or numerical analysis with at least n > 1000, and p I'm not sure what kinds of data this result could be derived from, but the methods for getting that data should be cited and common - thus being reproducible. Data could also be collected by examining alternative "inputs" (independent variables: i.e. temperament towards discomfort), or by testing how inducing discomfort leads to resistance to ideas, or something else.

I'd expect the research to include, for example, controls where the same individuals evaluate methodologically identical studies from other fields. We'd need to show this 'resistance' is specific to sociology, not general scientific skepticism.

That's to say: The study should also show, numerically and repeatably, that there are legitimate correlations between sociological studies inducing discomfort, and that it is not actual methodological concerns.

This would include:

1. Validated scales measuring "discomfort" or cognitive dissonance

2. Behavioural indicators of resistance vs. legitimate critique

3. Control groups exposed to equally challenging but methodologically sound research

4. Control groups exposed to less challenging but equally methodologically sound research (to the level of sociology)

Also, since we're making a claim about psychology and causation, the study would ideally be conducted by researchers outside of sociology departments to avoid conflicts of interest - preferably cognitive psychologists or neuroscientists using their methodological standards.

Re: AI could have written this: Birth of a classist slur in knowledge work [pdf]

#70

Post by kazinator »

throwawaybob420 wrote: post #65
kazinator wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is false. Woke liberals and their insane ideas are widely despised by people from all over the political map. Paul Graham has observed that "wokeness is in retreat". https://paulgraham.com/woke.html Now, some alt right are acting like wokeness is not in retreat, and constitutes some kind of large and growing threat, so that aligning against it is a major priority. However, that doesn't mean everyone who uses the…

Oh my god who gives a fuck about what Paul Graham has to say about “woke”. Saying “woke” in any context to attack a particular idea or ideology makes you _sound_ like your engaging in American culture war bullshit.

The author of the submitted paper writes that by positing that someone's post may have been AI generated, or could as well have been, you're oppressing disadvantaged groups, helping to keep them out of joining the knowledge worker class.

I.e. implying you should probably stop doing that, in the name of social justice.

That is absurdly woke, by any objective measure. The word woke is being used accurately.

By the way, for most people, it should be a compliment to have their writing compared to AI, because "AI could have written that" means that it the writing has good grammar and spelling, and usually makes some kind of coherent point.

I happen like the above article by Graham; it's very observant. I feel that he nails almost everything in it, and handles the subject in an different way from other authors.

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