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Microsoft Office is using an artificially complex XML schema as a lock-in tool

blog.documentfoundation.org

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Re: Microsoft Office is using an artificially complex XML schema as a lock-in tool

#61

Post by nlitened »

Arainach wrote: post #43
piker wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you're getting so downvoted. It's a totally reasonable opinion in 2025 but it faces massive adoption headwind. People still cling to the idea of printing pages of documents even if it's increasingly rare (even, say in legal) for them to do so.

This is getting downvoted because it's ludicrous. Users want WYSIWIG - documents that are what appears on the printer page or when people they share the document to open it. "Interoperability" is something technical enthusiasts talk about and not something that users creating documents care about outside of the people they share with seeing exactly what was created.

as you say, tech enthusiasts only _talk_ about interoperability, but very very few actually care about it. Try interoperating between two pieces of code written in two different languages without spinning up an HTTP server or a separate virtual machine with a database system. Not even two different languages, just between two major versions of the same damn programming language.

Re: Microsoft Office is using an artificially complex XML schema as a lock-in tool

#62

Post by homebrewer »

Ekaros wrote: post #45
jpalomaki wrote: post #24

What we should really do is abandon the WYSIWYG approach to document editing. This inevitably leads into vendor lock in. Instead of perfect looks, we should focus on the content. Formats like markdown are nice, because they force you to do this. The old way made sense 30 yers ago when information was consumed on paper.

Looking at Latex, I don't think hand tuning some parameters until you get right look in every single case is much better user experience... Ofc, if we stop really caring what things look like we could save lot of energy and time. Just go back to pure HTML without any JavaScript or CSS...

> if we stop really caring what things look like we could save lot of energy and time

Yet simple Markdown documents automatically converted into pdf by pandoc look ten times better than most MS Office documents I've had to deal with over the past couple of decades. Most MS Office users have very little knowledge of its capabilities and do things like adjusting text blocks with spaces, manually number figures (which results in broken references that lead to the wrong figure — or nowhere), manually apply styles to text instead of using style presets (resulting in similar things being differently styled), etc.

Re: Microsoft Office is using an artificially complex XML schema as a lock-in tool

#63

Post by masa331 »

perching_aix wrote: post #25
masa331 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you be more specific here? HTML and CSS can't be described like that in my opinion. It is complex but not complicated. You can start with just a few small parts and get to a usable and clean document within hours from the first contact with the languages. The tags and rules are usually quite self-describing while consice and there are tons and tons of good docs and tools. The development of the standards is also…

The current HTML spec alone is a 1000+ page PDF, and I can't imagine the CSS spec being much shorter. Wordsmithing your way around this doesn't make them any easier.

Sure the spec might be enormous but you don't need to touch it at all to be productive quickly. In no HTML or CSS tutorial i'v ever seen was a reference to the spec nor did i need to go there to solve something. And that in itself is another proof how nicely it is designed actually. Because on the other hand there are other document types or schemas where you absolutely have to go to the spec because it's is so cryptic and badly designed and not self-explaining that there is nothing else you can do.

Re: Microsoft Office is using an artificially complex XML schema as a lock-in tool

#64

Post by bob1029 »

deknos wrote: post #58
bob1029 wrote: post #12

This is a comical perspective to me. I've been ass-deep in core banking APIs where we generate service references from WSDL/XSDs. Some of the resulting codegen measures in the tens of megabytes for some files. I wouldn't even attempt to quantify the number of pages of documentation. And this is just for mid size US banking domain. Microsoft Office has to work literally everywhere for everything. The fact that it's on…

It's not only about the XML itself, but that microsoft really likes to change the standard any time opensource catches up. and most of the time they do not use their open standard, but the other document type. The artificial vendor lockin is real.

You can simply re-run your codegen on the newly published schema and review for compile-time errors.

We do this about once a quarter in the banking industry. It takes about an hour on average.

Re: Microsoft Office is using an artificially complex XML schema as a lock-in tool

#65

Post by jonathaneunice »

I wish this article had shown side-by-side examples. Back when I built document transformation tools as part of a publishing pipeline, the simplicity and clarity benefit of OpenDocument's XML over Microsoft's OOXML were *staggering* in practice. A beautiful, clean, logical approach vs beyond-Byzantine cruft and complexity at every turn.

I don't remember every element enough to render from memory, but ChatGPT's example feels about right:

OpenDocument

This is some bold text in a paragraph.

OOXML

This is some bold text in a paragraph.

OpenDocument is not always 100% "simple," but it's logical and direct. Comprehensible on sight. OOXML is...something else entirely. Keep in mind the above are the simplest possible examples, not including named styles, footnotes, comments, change markup, and 247 other features commonly seen in commercial documents. The OpenDocument advantage increases at scale. In every way except breadth of adoption.

Re: Microsoft Office is using an artificially complex XML schema as a lock-in tool

#66

Post by scarface_74 »

lcnielsen wrote: post #59
scarface_74 wrote: post #52

There have been third party support for importing and exporting Office documents as long as I can remember. It was part of Apple’s File Exchange extension in 1994. No one is locked into Office because of file formats.

> No one is locked into Offive because of file formats A lot of people are locked in because those import/export features are typically imperfect (or perhaps the documents themselves are) and will badly and often "invisibly" (to the non-Office user) break something.

You could say the same about a web page or even Markdown…

But honestly these days, the only time I use Word is to keep my resume up to date once per quarter. That’s a really simple document.

Re: Microsoft Office is using an artificially complex XML schema as a lock-in tool

#67

Post by perching_aix »

masa331 wrote: post #63
perching_aix wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current HTML spec alone is a 1000+ page PDF, and I can't imagine the CSS spec being much shorter. Wordsmithing your way around this doesn't make them any easier.

Sure the spec might be enormous but you don't need to touch it at all to be productive quickly. In no HTML or CSS tutorial i'v ever seen was a reference to the spec nor did i need to go there to solve something. And that in itself is another proof how nicely it is designed actually. Because on the other hand there are other document types or schemas where you absolutely have to go to the spec because it's is so crypt…

HTML and CSS tutorials are for people authoring HTML and CSS documents, not for people authoring HTML and CSS parsers and renderers.

Re: Microsoft Office is using an artificially complex XML schema as a lock-in tool

#68

Post by bob1029 »

perching_aix wrote: post #30
bob1029 wrote: post #12

This is a comical perspective to me. I've been ass-deep in core banking APIs where we generate service references from WSDL/XSDs. Some of the resulting codegen measures in the tens of megabytes for some files. I wouldn't even attempt to quantify the number of pages of documentation. And this is just for mid size US banking domain. Microsoft Office has to work literally everywhere for everything. The fact that it's on…

Interfacing sounds like only just half the battle though? Like, I don't understand why this is a counter-argument.

As argued elsewhere in this thread there is essential complexity inherent to any problem that cannot be eliminated.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44613270

If you have this much complexity and there is nothing you can do to reduce it, then the next best thing is to have an incredibly convenient way to stand up a perfect client on the other side of the fence within a single business day.

Re: Microsoft Office is using an artificially complex XML schema as a lock-in tool

#69

Post by znpy »

jpalomaki wrote: post #24

What we should really do is abandon the WYSIWYG approach to document editing. This inevitably leads into vendor lock in. Instead of perfect looks, we should focus on the content. Formats like markdown are nice, because they force you to do this. The old way made sense 30 yers ago when information was consumed on paper.

This could only work if all people using computers are tech people, and willing to spend a couple of months learning latex or whatever.

None of the two conditions are reality, of course.

So yeah, that’s not happening.

Re: Microsoft Office is using an artificially complex XML schema as a lock-in tool

#70

Post by skywhopper »

While the critique is correct, the complexity is probably not “artificial”. Rather, it directly reflects the internal decades-old complex architecture of Office applications rather than making any attempt to be an actually useful schema for sharing between applications.

It only exists because Microsoft was desperate to avoid antitrust consequences for the dominance of Office 25 years ago.

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