Live data from Hacker News

When Figma starts designing us

designsystems.international

61–70 of 145 posts

Re: When Figma starts designing us

#61
post #36

No, here’s the problem: Figma doesn’t go far enough. If you need a free form design tool to sketch, use one. There are hundreds of them. I need to implement my design system inside of a design tool so I can prototype designs with multiple breakpoints, container queries, modes, and variants. Figma isn’t up to the job. Ever tried opening the variables tab on the Material 3 Figma file? Stutter, stutter, stutter, “this t…

Isn't this the problem with all no-code / low-code platforms ? Code is merely the leanest human-readable representation for loss-less specification of requirements. We're seeing this same pattern with 'K8s YAMLs' and 'prompt engineering'. There is an entire industry that's re-inventing new DSLs which inevitably converge to a scripting language as requirements get more complex. Instead of reinventing the abstraction,…

> Code is merely the leanest human-readable representation for loss-less specification of requirements.

Hum... That's assuming you have a perfect development stack that hides all non-essential complexity.

And well, I have news for you, that's a low-code platform. A generic stack that hides every problem but solves every requirement just can't exist.

Re: When Figma starts designing us

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a dev that does a lot of his own design, I’ve never really understood the need to build a full fidelity reproduction of the layout systems a design is targeting. The limitations and considerations involved are deeply internalized and for the most part, I know exactly where designs tend to break and how to account for them. The layout system is effectively running in my head the entire time I’m mocking things up. S…

I had my UX designer girlfriend read “CSS: The Definitive Guide” and it changed the way she looked at her job. She taught me Figma and it changed the way I look at my job, and hers. Learn as much as you can. Specialization is for insects.

I advocate for learning as much as possible as well. It comes naturally with being self-taught. That said I think it’s also worth zooming out and giving things a look through a critical eye to ensure that the things we’re learning are necessary and worthwhile.

There are still a number of “old school” UI designers out there who’ve resisted trends and have staunchly stuck to a more traditional workflow, where they start out with a rough mockup made in e.g. Photoshop and then iterate the design alongside an engineer. It would be interesting to be in the room amidst a discussion between one of these traditionalists and a “new age” Figma-type UI designer.

Re: When Figma starts designing us

#64
Wow. Trying to work with a design for hire house lately, who insists that Figma is THE TOOL we must be ALL IN on. This paragraph

>> Another feature is Dev Mode, which, in theory, is the missing bridge between the design specification and the technical implementation. However, it enforces a mindset where designers polish designs far away from the technology they are designing for, and where enormous amounts of time are spent on building complex prototypes, only for them to be discarded and rebuilt in code...

really strikes home.

Re: When Figma starts designing us

#65
The "problem" is not figma. It is design in general. Everybody are coping each other which makes sense: You cannot copyright a design and also copying is much easier - and looks better - than designing from scratch.

However while designers will definitely think this as a "problem" which would kill creativity, I as an engineer think that it is the path that would happen later if not now. You can't really blame companies if they want to copy other successful designs - it works.

Re: When Figma starts designing us

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a dev that does a lot of his own design, I’ve never really understood the need to build a full fidelity reproduction of the layout systems a design is targeting. The limitations and considerations involved are deeply internalized and for the most part, I know exactly where designs tend to break and how to account for them. The layout system is effectively running in my head the entire time I’m mocking things up. S…

I had my UX designer girlfriend read “CSS: The Definitive Guide” and it changed the way she looked at her job. She taught me Figma and it changed the way I look at my job, and hers. Learn as much as you can. Specialization is for insects.

What did you learn about Figma that changed how you think about your work?

Re: When Figma starts designing us

#67

No, here’s the problem: Figma doesn’t go far enough. If you need a free form design tool to sketch, use one. There are hundreds of them. I need to implement my design system inside of a design tool so I can prototype designs with multiple breakpoints, container queries, modes, and variants. Figma isn’t up to the job. Ever tried opening the variables tab on the Material 3 Figma file? Stutter, stutter, stutter, “this t…

"the problem is that it’s too designer-y for engineers"

Exactly! Numerous times I have wanted to start a new personal project however got stuck in figma designing process. Had no other chance except writing in pure html/css - the only things that still "work" for me unlike those stupid frameworks.

Re: When Figma starts designing us

#68
I never really got the almost code, but still not code appeal of figma. Like the author, I get the design into real code asap. I'll even use a sketch CSS library just so the client can interact and give real feedback. Clicking through an interactive but fake UX is just not real enough for me. Too much bike shedding.

As far as web application design, there are only so many useful idioms. Iterating over actual working interfaces I find the most rapid and satisfying way to design. I built my last app this way. Albeit I'm in ultimate control of the design and build. Experience may differ if these are separate responsibilities.

Re: When Figma starts designing us

#69
post #16

Engineers here will disagree of course but the job of the designer is to dream and your job is to build it

> the designer is to dream and your job is to build it You may be thinking of an artist. A designer's job is to understand and solve user problems. (FYI this is coming from a designer, not an engineer.)

Can someone help me understand when this bifurcation happened. As a Mechanical Enginneer who worked their way through college doing software, and then... just kept going for the next 30 years, I find this increasingly role based demarcation difficult to understand/accept. I came out of an era where we called ourselves engineers, but we were designers too. And a whole lot of other things. And the mantra regardless of label, was to solve the right problem for the right people.

I feel like software creation in this decade is increasingly about the creation of beauracracies. Different roles. Different processes. More people than ever before. Everyone vying that their contribution is essential, and that others need to stay in their lanes. I miss the old days honestly. I told myself I would not be like this as I aged. I'm struggling to execute on that hope. :|

I often call them the D's of organizations. Doers, Deciders, Discussers. We seem to have less and less respect for the plight of the Doer, and more and more desire to legitimize the others in disproportionate amounts. Pournelle's Law I guess.

Re: When Figma starts designing us

#70
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this the problem with all no-code / low-code platforms ? Code is merely the leanest human-readable representation for loss-less specification of requirements. We're seeing this same pattern with 'K8s YAMLs' and 'prompt engineering'. There is an entire industry that's re-inventing new DSLs which inevitably converge to a scripting language as requirements get more complex. Instead of reinventing the abstraction,…

From my viewpoint the benefit of low-code is that the average business application is a matter of people filling out forms. If you want to radically lower development time you have to solve all the problems https://worrydream.com/refs/Brooks_1986_-_No_Silver_Bullet.p... For instance, a 2025 no code platform is likely to have "one click" deployment of a cloud application. That's great if you can accept that but if you…

>> an object going through a number of states with state transitions was general and much better than the 15+ date columns

It amazes me that anyone would write a schema with a dozen date columns, but I've seen such things. Once you're dealing with a large database of something like that, it's tempting to just add one more column rather than pitch why you should refactor the whole thing.

I try to keep my schemas relational as possible. Actions and immutable records should obviously be stored in separate tables from the objects they reference. However, this does make the UX form design / CRUD process less amenable to simple solutions where forms are just generated right out of a schema.

Your phone number example highlights this. In general of course you want to store contacts in a separate table from customers. But that means you're probably going to need a separate contacts sub-form within your customer form, rather than just inline phone fields. Then form will need to be required or inlined for any new customer before the main customer form can be saved. Stuff like that.

Over the last 15 years or so I've built and refined my own form generator, really a DSL for designing forms that fit this type of thing. In its more basic use cases, each form lives as a row in a database, with each form_item linked to it in a separate table. The form runs a pre-fab query that expects N inputs that it binds to :variables (usually in WHERE or HAVING clauses) and then renders a pre-populated visual form with various input types like dropdowns, checkboxes, calendars, etc (based on those form_items, which can all be styled, required/not required, required based on other answers, etc). Each form_item has its own standard validation or custom validation function on both the client and server side. The form knows which table it wants to write to and which bound variable is the id field it's going to target for update. Sending it a blank id field renders the form with nothing populated and then does an insert instead of an update when it's submitted. It's very slim, about 500 LOC of Typescript and 700 LOC of PHP, including most standard kinds of validations on both ends. I've always toyed with the idea of releasing it it for people to use, but here's the rub: If you want to do anything involving writing to more than one table, you need to write a custom final function for those additional insert/updates.

So, it's a lovely system, but someone coming to it naively would run the risk of designing schemas that were not expressive enough, to try to keep the CRUD system happy. And I think this is just an inevitable problem with all low-code solutions: They don't handle multi-dimensional data the way you want a clean schema to handle it. (And neither do users).

Post reply on HN