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Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

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Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#61

Post by IAmBroom »

paulnpace wrote: post #51
jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

I have wondered if this concept can be applied to some sort of DEW armor.

Well, as long as you're willing to wear (essentially) fishtanks into battle, it might work.

One little layer of wet clothes isn't going to do much against Directed Energy Weapons - unless you were just really anxious about condensation.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#62

Post by IAmBroom »

contrarian1234 wrote: post #44
Roark66 wrote: post #15

And how could they've done this without language? I've heard this statement that neanderthals were "outcompeted" because homo sapiens had language and they did not (something about the way their anatomy didn't allow for making complex sounds). I call BS on that now. You can't do this kind of stuff without ability to communicate your intentions, future plans, rewards for other people and so on. Next we'll discover the…

Do you think a community of deaf people wouldn't be able to do it? :)

Do you think deaf people can't communicate?

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#63

Post by IAmBroom »

thfuran wrote: post #50
poulpy123 wrote: post #48

While the discovery is great, there are quotes that are very clickbaity like "They understood both the nutritional value of fat and how to access it efficiently.” No they didn't understand the nutritional value better than any other homo something before or after, or even any carnivorous animals. It's just that evolution engineered them to look for food everywhere. For example the bearded vulture diet is based on bon…

Neanderthals were certainly smart enough to have more understanding of dietary needs than a vulture does. And "any homo something before or after" includes us today. While it might be reasonable to say there are things we don't fully understand about the way fat affects the body, we do understand the nutritional value of fat.

My huskies and some of my neighbors have equivalent educations on nutritional science.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#64

Post by prometheus76 »

bjornsing wrote: post #41
contrarian1234 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read that the native american peoples that lives in the San Francisco area never invented pottery. They boiled water in tightly woven baskets. Sure you have a 100C heatsink within millimeters, but I still find it surprising that the outside layer of the basket wouldn't burn away slowly.

> Sure you have a 100C heatsink within millimeters, but I still find it surprising that the outside layer of the basket wouldn't burn away slowly. Probably because the water slowly permeates through the outside layer of the basket and evaporates there. A lot of energy can be absorbed that way.

I'm not sure that's the mechanism at work because I have boiled eggs using plastic cups and also waxed paper cups many times. I don't think any water is boiling through. The cup itself is staying at 100C, which is below its ignition point.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#65

Post by prometheus76 »

bjackman wrote: post #23
14 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes if you search youtube you can find people showing how to boil water inside a plastic bag. Typically they show this in survival situation scenarios. You apparently can also do it in a wooden container if done right. But as to your question wouldn't they need to have pots? Well I know we don't have evidence of that but it wouldn't surprise me. Another method show for survival shows a person taking a fallen tree and…

IIUC the easiest way to boil stuff without ceramics is usually in an animal's stomach or intestines. I believe you can also do it in a lined wicker basket. I'm not sure exactly how these things are done but both of them seem much easier to figure out than how to fire a pot! (Requires very high temperature and a good understanding of the material to stop it cracking)

You can also use a plastic bottle or even a paper drinking cup.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#66

Post by IAmBroom »

ricksunny wrote: post #5
baxtr wrote: post #4

> The production of bone grease, which required huge quantities of bone to be worthwhile, was previously considered to be something limited to Upper Paleolithic modern humans. This find pushes back the timeline by thousands of years and represents a fundamental shift in our knowledge of Neanderthal diet and adaptation. If I had to guess I’d say we learned it from them.

I still struggle with the repeated assertions from the scicommss set that the 'neanderthals died out' or 'humans outcompeted neanderthals who went extinct', while at the same time acknowledging that 3% of DNA of everyone outside the African content is neanderthal. With that being the limit of 'the data' generally cited at hadn't, wouldn't a gradual, passively amicable merging (e.g. absorption) be just as explanatory…

I've long assumed it's typical patriarchal historical/anthro bullshit. History is memorizing kings and wars; there have to be winners and losers; etc.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#67

Post by IAmBroom »

hoseja wrote: post #60
14 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am convinced that early humans were a lot smarter then given credit for. My guess is the same as yours and that they were part of a long chain of steps of learning and development that went back much farther then we have evidence for.

Neanderthals especially were probably kinda autistic.

Um, cite?

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#68

Post by detaro »

Roark66 wrote: post #15

And how could they've done this without language? I've heard this statement that neanderthals were "outcompeted" because homo sapiens had language and they did not (something about the way their anatomy didn't allow for making complex sounds). I call BS on that now. You can't do this kind of stuff without ability to communicate your intentions, future plans, rewards for other people and so on. Next we'll discover the…

As far as I know the current evidence points towards neanderthal ability to make sounds not being that much different than early homo sapiens. The are assumed to have had less complex language and thinking, e.g. couldn't abstract or symbolize things, unlike homo sapiens. But that doesn't mean no language or no ability to communicate at all.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#69

Post by williamdclt »

jbotz wrote: post #6

When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery? This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because t…

Getting somewhat off-topic and maybe it's more evident to other people, but for me understanding this energy transfer was eye-opening for my cooking abilities!

Like, my mushrooms aren't going to actually cook as I want as long as they render water because the water is cooling the pan down. Obvious in retrospect, never really fully realised it. Also means I can blast the heat up to get rid of this water faster, it's not going to make the pan hotter than 100C while there's a layer of water.

Re: Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

#70

Post by paulnpace »

IAmBroom wrote: post #61
paulnpace wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have wondered if this concept can be applied to some sort of DEW armor.

Well, as long as you're willing to wear (essentially) fishtanks into battle, it might work. One little layer of wet clothes isn't going to do much against Directed Energy Weapons - unless you were just really anxious about condensation.

It can't conduct heat to human skin. The concept, in this case, wouldn't be to merely prevent a material from catching fire, but to keep the person from being burned or steam-boiled.

However, the general concept could also be applied to protecting things besides people, such as vehicles or buildings.

I don't actually know very much about the wavelengths used by DEW, so I'm not clear if water, alone, is a practical as shielding, but could be used as a heat sink, especially when factoring in latent heat of vaporization.

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