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The Worst Argument In The World

lesswrong.com

61–70 of 152 posts

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#61

This seems disingenuous to me. Already by calling what's essentially rhetoric "arguments", he's building a huge strawman. Take abortion - according to opponents a fetus is a living human being, and actively and purposefully killing a living human being is murder in the Charles Manson style. The argument for abortion isn't that it's somehow OK to kill really young human, it's that fetuses aren't independent human bein…

> The argument for abortion isn't that it's somehow OK to kill really young human

Not true! At least, if you asked me to make an argument in favor of abortion, that's the argument that I would make.

No human within the first year or so after conception has any of the distinguishing features which give intelligent beings a higher moral status: Tool use, language use, abstract thought, logical reasoning, permanent memory.

Therefore, the moral status of a human immediately after the time of conception t_0 is akin to that of an animal. It's not okay to torture, abuse, or injure them for fun; it's not okay for people outside their family to interfere with them; it's morally and socially acceptable and even admirable for individuals to form very deep emotional attachments with them and spend enormous resources helping and protecting them; but it is okay to kill them humanely if there simply isn't a place for them.

The moral status of the very young human rises from that of a proto-human animal to that of a full human at time t_I, the time when they become intelligent.

The problem is that t_I is extremely difficult to measure. It depends on your definition of intelligence and can be very different for different individuals. (For severely brain-damaged individuals, it may even be the case that t_I = infinity.)

To deal with the difficulty of measuring t_I, our culture and laws have instead picked a deadline t_D, such that t_D is much smaller than t_I in all cases (regardless of differing definitions or individual cases). We have declared that we should assume humans younger than t_D have proto-human legal status roughly equivalent to animal status, and humans older than t_D have full-human legal status. Killing before the deadline is legal if done in a humane way with the consent of the mother; killing after the deadline is treated the same as killing an adult would be (only allowable in very limited circumstances such as self-defense). Therefore our society can avoid some of the drains placed on it by humans who, it is known, will be born into far-from-ideal circumstances, while hopefully staying far away enough from t_I to avoid sanctioning the killing of anyone who has the moral status of a full human. (Obviously, t_D is the time of birth plus delta, where delta is less than one day (I'm not sure exactly what delta is, but I'm pretty sure it's less than one day). Delta is necessary to account for partial-birth abortions.)

The problem with many pro-abortion arguments is that they are of the form "It is our belief that all humans have souls, and therefore full-human moral status, from the time of conception." It's not a problem that those are their religious beliefs; the problem is enshrining those beliefs into law in prohibitions on abortion. Logic and facts, not religious beliefs, must be the basis of our laws; to do otherwise would open up the very can of worms that we try to avoid by separating church and state. We can't observe souls, but we can observe intelligent behavior, and the latter seems not to preclude existing abortion laws in any way. (Existing abortion laws also don't interfere with the religious beliefs of abortion opponents; if you believe abortion is morally wrong, you don't have to have one. The law only steps in to the extent that anti-abortionists wish to impose their beliefs on others.)

Hypothetically, if the laws were expanded to legalize infanticide as "extremely late abortion" at any time up to, say, age three, then a moral argument would hold weight; many two-year-olds do use language and can exhibit surprisingly intelligent behaviors. Likewise, if the laws were expanded to require abortions in certain circumstances (for example, to enforce a one-child-per-family policy like China has), that would also be wrong and almost surely unconstitutional; for it would interfere with the religious beliefs of most abortion opponents. (I say "most" since I suppose it is possible there is some faction whose religious beliefs, if any, don't forbid abortion, but bases an opposition to abortion on non-religious grounds. If they even exist, they're surely very small and not very vocal.)

Of course, everyone (myself included) regards such expansions as extremely morally repugnant; I know of no one who would even consider supporting them. I'm just offering them against a hypothetical opponent who would say, "If you would sanction the killing of innocent babies, you clearly have no moral compass!" This worldview does have limitations on what is allowed; it just draws the line between "unallowable atrocity under any circumstances" and "the lesser of two evils" in a slightly different place than pro-lifers.

As much of a tendency as it is among liberals to put all conservatives in the same boat, both on HN and everywhere else the left gathers, abortion is possibly the best place to draw the line between libertarians and social conservatives: The latter favor prohibitions, while the former should oppose them as unwanted government intrusion (although many do not, I suspect, due to simple realpolitik -- a sacrifice of a non-core position by a weaker leg of the stool to support a core position of a stronger leg to maintain the conservative coalition, presumably a compromise to be "renegotiated" -- possibly unilaterally -- when/if their relative strength ever changes.)

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#62
post #17

So basically, this is saying "don't generalise". Or am I just generalising?

No, the point is more specific than that. A better summary would be “don’t generalise the opposing position to a category where it’s an outlier”. Admit all important ways in which your generalisation unfairly “taints” the subject with negative connotations. Feel free, on the other hand, to generalise positions accurately, in a category which the position generally represents.

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#63

The article could use some more neutral and left-leaning "Worst argument in the world (TWAITW)" examples. I'm fairly neutral politically, and the piece sounded left-biased to me. Note that I'm not stating my opinion here; the author even apologizes for it in the article. Perhaps he is simply at a loss for examples? We could help. Here's a neutral one (from the comments): - "George Washington was a traitor !" (should…

Wow - evolution has been directly observed and is the overwhelming consensus among biologists, if not among fundamentalists whose theology is threatened by it... yet you have carefully impugned its existence by referencing "fantastic parts," as if evolution were a matter of unicorns or Roswell or something. Go learn about Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium, then come and lecture us on how evolution isn't really a fact. I wil…

Evolution and belief in God might dampen your enthusiasm for evolution. God said those who love evolution are vain. Dumb people don't get excited about teaching evolution. Does it make you happy that God authorized genocide? That ought to sober-up your dumb-ass. You might get what you pray for.

God says... acceptably heresies provision unbending pass Latvia valuable departed cost imparted invite instruct AD future vanities archive lattice slow you_shouldn't_have repose all-sufficient heaven's hooks ensnaring covetousness three starry outer consumption errors I'm_on_a_roll medicining commendable mirthful struggles disputing loses meanly

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Latvia has God's favorite national anthem. :-) I wuv God.

War is "Servicemen competing". Love neighbor as self. Live by sword, die by sword -- if you want to play the game of soldier, you can kill as long as you don't mind getting killed. Actually, I appreciate what they do -- not a game. Are recent wars seem 100% optional.

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God says...

he spake, and praised God.

1:65 And fear came on all that dwelt round about them: and all these sayings were noised abroad throughout all the hill country of Judaea.

1:66 And all they that heard them laid them up in their hearts, saying, What manner of child shall this be! And the hand of the Lord was with him.

1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying, 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: 1:71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; 1:72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; 1:73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, 1:74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#64

I have to disagree with his first example. He says "X is in a category whose archetypal member has certain features". The first example is "Abortion is murder". He then says, "If you define murder as 'killing another human being', then abortion is technically murder." The problem is that in this case, his "if" applies to roughly 56% of the US population, as they define murder that way. In other words, he needs to sel…

How else do you define murder?

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#65
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Those who don't learn history is doomed to repeat it" Even when they have learned from history? We understand more now about exactly why the Nazi eugenics was wrong than we've ever known. Comparing the quest for a mythical Aryan Superman (Super-Duper-Superman!) to the hunt for a method to eliminate Tay-Sachs is useful how ?

Well, for starters, because to properly eliminate genetical diseases, you will eventually need to forbid carriers of undesirable genes to procreate. That gets nasty. So you have a voluntary regime, and the rich and well-educated (generally) make sure their children are free of genetical disorders, while the lower classes (generally) don't. Two generations later, you have "clean" people and "dirty" people. Why should…

> Well, for starters, because to properly eliminate genetical diseases, you will eventually need to forbid carriers of undesirable genes to procreate. That gets nasty.

I'm not sure I agree here. We can use fertilisation treatments to ensure that the fertilised eggs lack the mutation causing Tay-Sachs. Give couples the choice as to whether they want to have children the old fashioned way or go a genetically screened IVF route to avoid it and it'll be weaned out in a few generations.

> So you have a voluntary regime, and the rich and well-educated (generally) make sure their children are free of genetical disorders, while the lower classes (generally) don't.

Not here in the UK you wouldn't. Nor in most of Europe. People in the lower classes would be told about the genetic markers and given the option to have the screening, depending on the cost of treatment and impact of the disease.

> Why should the "clean" people, who did as they were encouraged to by the Department of Health, pay high insurance premiums/health tax to subsidize the totally preventable diseases of the "dirty" people?

Why should the "dirty" people suffer, or even exist in the first place? It seems like the combination of a medical system predicated on insurance and a selfish view (by which I mean orientation towards the self) is the heart of the creation of a two-tier system, not the combination of a well-run public healthcare system and a moral obligation for all people to support each other.

I realise this doesn't answer your question, but I wanted to highlight that your use case doesn't apply in quite a few parts of the world, although sadly it does in many.

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#66
I must point out that from a logical point of view "Because you don't like criminals, and Martin Luther King is a criminal, you should stop liking Martin Luther King." is correct.

Let us assume you like Martin Luther King. Then one of the 2 premises must be wrong. Is it "you don't like criminals" or is it "Martin Luther King is a criminal"?

I'm sorry to say that Martin Luther King was a criminal, and let us assume that means he still is in the strictest sense. Therefore, "you don't like criminals" cannot be correct.

However, "You don't like people who you consider to be a criminal" could still be correct, since you would probably accept that you don't consider Martin Luther King to be a criminal.

Sometimes you just need to teach people a little bit of logic.

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#67
post #30

The article could use some more neutral and left-leaning "Worst argument in the world (TWAITW)" examples. I'm fairly neutral politically, and the piece sounded left-biased to me. Note that I'm not stating my opinion here; the author even apologizes for it in the article. Perhaps he is simply at a loss for examples? We could help. Here's a neutral one (from the comments): - "George Washington was a traitor !" (should…

> but the creationist has a point that some of the more fantastic parts of evolution are harder to directly observe in the same way as, say, gravity. Honest question: which parts?

Well from a personal perspective it's hard for me to distinguish, because evolution seems pretty incontrovertible to me.

But I have many creationist friends, and the parts they don't seem to accept as "fact" are:

- Speciation (how given any amount of time we could get things as distinct as flowers and dogs and humans from a common ancestor)

- Emergent complexity (how given any amount of time, small changes in the genetic code could have led to things as complex as eyes and brains and so forth)

- Sentience and self-awareness (how given any amount of time our brains could have evolved to possess this seemingly magical and qualitatively different trait)

Again, I want to emphasize that I don't personally think any of these are great mysteries solvable only by appeals to spirituality. However, I hope everyone reading this could see how there's a bit of a jump from the 'fact' of (say) evolution of drug resistance in bacteria to the 'fact' of longer-term cumulative evolutionary effects like speciation and the eventual emergence of "eyes from non-eyes", etc.

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. The number of people who are responding to any of my little strawman arguments on their merits is surprising, and frankly disappointing on Hacker News. If you have replied to any of these "arguments" and asked me how I could possibly believe them, then you: - Have not understood the meta-topic of the post - Are unable to resist attacking silly arguments even when it is stated in my post that they are caricatures…

I'm not sure why you thought it was constructive to turn HN into a sounding board for your personal complaints about 'left-leaning argumentoids'. Setting aside the utility of providing more 'examples' of inflammatory political statements on HN, why maintain such thoroughgoing political bias? If the intent is to discuss forms of argument then the bias is only distracting. If the intent is to catalogue stereotypes or c…

Oh boy. Even when someone makes it clear they are trying to fill in the bias of the original article with an opposite bias, people still think you're doing it as a personal argument.

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. The number of people who are responding to any of my little strawman arguments on their merits is surprising, and frankly disappointing on Hacker News. If you have replied to any of these "arguments" and asked me how I could possibly believe them, then you: - Have not understood the meta-topic of the post - Are unable to resist attacking silly arguments even when it is stated in my post that they are caricatures…

I'm not sure why you thought it was constructive to turn HN into a sounding board for your personal complaints about 'left-leaning argumentoids'. Setting aside the utility of providing more 'examples' of inflammatory political statements on HN, why maintain such thoroughgoing political bias? If the intent is to discuss forms of argument then the bias is only distracting. If the intent is to catalogue stereotypes or c…

Sounds like he's trying to make the original article more neutral-sounding to me. He is merely saying that some people may immediately dismiss the author's article as trying to show that right-wing arguments are flawed. Hence, he proposed a few additional examples which are not so right-wing.

Re: The Worst Argument In The World

#70
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the creationist has a point that some of the more fantastic parts of evolution are harder to directly observe in the same way as, say, gravity. Honest question: which parts?

Well from a personal perspective it's hard for me to distinguish, because evolution seems pretty incontrovertible to me. But I have many creationist friends, and the parts they don't seem to accept as "fact" are: - Speciation (how given any amount of time we could get things as distinct as flowers and dogs and humans from a common ancestor) - Emergent complexity (how given any amount of time, small changes in the gen…

I'm an atheist and believe in evolution but I find these three things hard to grasp as well. I just find it fantastic that seemingly random mutations which grant marginally better chances to survival can lead to all these things.
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