Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator • Hacker News Board

Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator

#61

Post by sorcerer-mar » Mon, Jun 23, 2025, 4:11 PM UTC

reylas wrote: post #59

sorcerer-mar wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am old enough to remember the "ice age" that we were going to enter. You are remembering a fringe theory amigo. If that's what you expected to happen, it's because you were listening to fringe scientists. You are continuing to listen to fringe scientists. Science happens in public, so you will hear all sorts of different theories thrown out. If you are latching onto these and then perceiving divergence from them…

Dude, I agree! You are missing the point. I know it was a fringe theory. But that is my point. We are talking about losing faith in experts here. Not my beliefs. "Experts" and I use that term loosely, predicted a global cooling. It was not all of them, but when a few cry wolf and the press run with it, then people start dis-trusting "experts" even those that could be correct. You keep harping on my beliefs, but I hav…

Okay then, apply the "you" to "one who your comments ring true to."

I understand the dynamic you're pointing to, but it's simply not something that's solvable from the institutional/scientific-community side. We cannot allow institutions to actually control media, nor can we allow science to "go private."

The responsibility, which you and I both should reaffirm, is that individuals need to better manage their own information ecosystem and diet!

Do you have another solution?

Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator

#62

Post by Simulacra » Mon, Jun 23, 2025, 4:29 PM UTC

techpineapple wrote: post #20

Simulacra wrote: post #2

That's a big question, and a narrow article. People tend to distrust experts when they think they are being lied to, or manipulated.

To me the question is - why do people feel like they’re being lied to or manipulated by university scientists, but not guru’s, and the conspiracy theorists who write “ancient aliens”. I may be skeptical of institutions, but I’m also skeptical of Dr. Bob Bigfoot.

Politics.

Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator

#63

Post by AnimalMuppet » Mon, Jun 23, 2025, 4:45 PM UTC

techpineapple wrote: post #20

Simulacra wrote: post #2

That's a big question, and a narrow article. People tend to distrust experts when they think they are being lied to, or manipulated.

To me the question is - why do people feel like they’re being lied to or manipulated by university scientists, but not guru’s, and the conspiracy theorists who write “ancient aliens”. I may be skeptical of institutions, but I’m also skeptical of Dr. Bob Bigfoot.

I have three ideas here. (I present these as "one or the other or both", not as any kind of a cohesive package.)

1. Many people find the default accepted worldview to be empty or unsatisfying. Aliens or bigfoot give them something else, something "out there" to believe in.

2. Aliens or bigfoot give them the sense of being "in the know", one of the few who "accept the truth". It lets them feel good about themselves, that they are special.

3. Aliens and bigfoot don't ask them to change their life in any way. University scientists and government experts say some uncomfortable things sometimes.

Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator

#64

Post by variadix » Mon, Jun 23, 2025, 5:13 PM UTC

sorcerer-mar wrote: post #25

Bnichs wrote: post #19

>If our institutions can communicate their work better, supernatural beliefs will dry up a bit. We’ve seen this historically. I feel like this article misses the reason why people distrust institutions. Being "kicked out of the tent" is no doubt part of it, but it's more that the institutions themselves have stopped trying to communicate in good faith. In the past 50 or so years we've seen almost every institution (i…

Nah, you're exhibiting the fundamental problem which is effectively conspiratorial thinking. Not in the UFO sense, and I don't mean it disparagingly at all -- I mean literally ascribing behavior to some type of superstructure that doesn't really exist. "The healthcare system" is not one thing that "says" stuff. For every component of the education system that was trying to eliminate trades, there were others trying t…

The institutions have failed to follow their own (supposed) standards, and failed to purge bad actors that subverted or abandoned those standards. Yes, ultimately it is the people at those institutions that have failed not the institution in the abstract, but their failure to be accountable triggers the only response the public has: to distrust or abandon existing institutions and seek or create new ones.

Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator

#65

Post by _DeadFred_ » Mon, Jun 23, 2025, 5:46 PM UTC

techpineapple wrote: post #20

Simulacra wrote: post #2

That's a big question, and a narrow article. People tend to distrust experts when they think they are being lied to, or manipulated.

To me the question is - why do people feel like they’re being lied to or manipulated by university scientists, but not guru’s, and the conspiracy theorists who write “ancient aliens”. I may be skeptical of institutions, but I’m also skeptical of Dr. Bob Bigfoot.

We have no caretakers in society. People that care about and watch out for society. We have only political creatures now. When I was a kid the majority of political people/institution people were caretakers. Even the political pundits on TV put those things above party. Then grifters learned to weaponize being a caretaker against the caretakers by calling them RINOs on the right, and centrists on the left. We've optimized our politicians based on snark and media propagandists that only care about their audience numbers and ran off the RINOs/centrists that were the caretakers of society.

In institutions, we ran off the caretakers/removed their roles and replaced them with optimizers and prioritized max profit/optimization over institutional caretaking.

Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator

#66

Post by mike_hearn » Mon, Jun 23, 2025, 5:52 PM UTC

sorcerer-mar wrote: post #35

mike_hearn wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The industries don't matter. They are all subject to very broad and powerful government licensing rules that can overrule their own opinions at any time. For example, during COVID there were doctors who lost their license to practice because they disagreed with the government stance on vaccines. Therefore, the remaining doctors spoke with one voice. The government used them as sock puppets, in effect. Whether you agr…

No, they aren't "all" subject to licensing rules. That's why the specific industries do matter. Can you share some examples of these doctors? AFAIK the only doctors who lost their licenses are those who created fake medical documentation or who shared verifiably false medical information. Not for "disagreeing" with the government stance on vaccines. I don't know if you lived in a different timeline than me, but I rem…

I'm not going to get into the weeds about COVID because you said:

> the things these systems "say" are emergent phenomena ... Consensus was overwhelmingly on one side ... [those who disagree] jeopardize their license

Rephrased, it's not happening and it's good that it's happening.

Pick your side: either you want agreement in the healthcare system to be trusted because it's the result of many independent decisions pointing in the same direction, or you want a system that punishes dissent. You can't try to claim the benefits of the first whilst cheering on the second.

Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator

#67

Post by mike_hearn » Mon, Jun 23, 2025, 6:04 PM UTC

sorcerer-mar wrote: post #51

Bnichs wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to preface. Covid is the new Nazis, all arguments end up devolving into its discussion. Im tired of talking about covid but it's hard to get past how our country handled it, both the people and the government. To answer your question: https://www.politifact.com/article/2024/jun/06/did-fauci-say... >He said the 6-foot guideline “sort of just appeared” and wasn’t based on any data, and that such a study would be d…

Excellent example! First the strong rebuttal: "Verifiably false information at time of sharing" in this case would mean you have evidence that Fauci knew distance played no role in infection rates, or that a distance other than 6 feet was better, and put out information suggesting 6 feet was correct anyway. You have no evidence of this, of course, because this is not what happened. The more general rebuttal is that y…

> you have evidence that Fauci knew distance played no role in infection rates, or that a distance other than 6 feet was better, and put out information suggesting 6 feet was correct anyway.

There are three options:

1. Fauci knew the correct answer to some degree of accuracy and picked a rounded off version.

2. He didn't know the correct answer but thought he did.

3. Fauci didn't know the correct answer, was aware he didn't know, and he made one up in order to sound knowledgeable.

You're arguing what happened is (1). What actually happened is (3), which we know because he admitted it.

Social distancing had no effect, and this was known early on. There is no known distance curve that correctly models SARS-CoV-2 transmission in the real world, largely because it spreads via aerosol clouds as well as droplets. The data for this was available nearly from the start because:

1. SARS-1 acted this way, as do other coronaviruses. Outbreaks of SARS-1 could be found spreading between apartment buildings on the wind.

2. The outbreak on the Diamond Princess cruise ship showed cases appearing all over the vessel at random, even though everyone was confined to quarters. There was no physical contact in that case and it made no difference whatsoever.

Social distancing had no visible effect anywhere it was tried. What did work was high quality air cleaning equipment, as found on planes - places that remained remarkably infection free despite everyone being much closer than 6ft together.

Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator

#68

Post by sorcerer-mar » Mon, Jun 23, 2025, 6:09 PM UTC

variadix wrote: post #64

sorcerer-mar wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, you're exhibiting the fundamental problem which is effectively conspiratorial thinking. Not in the UFO sense, and I don't mean it disparagingly at all -- I mean literally ascribing behavior to some type of superstructure that doesn't really exist. "The healthcare system" is not one thing that "says" stuff. For every component of the education system that was trying to eliminate trades, there were others trying t…

The institutions have failed to follow their own (supposed) standards, and failed to purge bad actors that subverted or abandoned those standards. Yes, ultimately it is the people at those institutions that have failed not the institution in the abstract, but their failure to be accountable triggers the only response the public has: to distrust or abandon existing institutions and seek or create new ones.

Do you have some examples of these standards, bad actors, and failures to meet and purge them respectively?

Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator

#69

Post by seanmcdirmid » Mon, Jun 23, 2025, 6:20 PM UTC

dogtierstatus wrote: post #42

MiscIdeaMaker99 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. Lots and lots of them died, as result.

is this how modern survival of the fittest work now?

There was a joke going around for awhile renaming Darwin awards as Herman Cain awards. A bit mean, but it had some merit.

Re: Why don't Americans trust experts? Just ask a paranormal investigator

#70

Post by sorcerer-mar » Mon, Jun 23, 2025, 6:33 PM UTC

mike_hearn wrote: post #67

sorcerer-mar wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent example! First the strong rebuttal: "Verifiably false information at time of sharing" in this case would mean you have evidence that Fauci knew distance played no role in infection rates, or that a distance other than 6 feet was better, and put out information suggesting 6 feet was correct anyway. You have no evidence of this, of course, because this is not what happened. The more general rebuttal is that y…

> you have evidence that Fauci knew distance played no role in infection rates, or that a distance other than 6 feet was better, and put out information suggesting 6 feet was correct anyway. There are three options: 1. Fauci knew the correct answer to some degree of accuracy and picked a rounded off version. 2. He didn't know the correct answer but thought he did. 3. Fauci didn't know the correct answer, was aware he…

It never takes long to get from "I need to be trusted with the facts!" to demonstrating just gobsmacking levels of willful ignorance.

> Social distancing had no visible effect anywhere it was tried.

> Our search identified 172 observational studies across 16 countries and six continents, with no randomised controlled trials and 44 relevant comparative studies in health-care and non-health-care settings (n=25 697 patients). Transmission of viruses was lower with physical distancing of 1 m or more, compared with a distance of less than 1 m (n=10 736, pooled adjusted odds ratio [aOR] 0·18, 95% CI 0·09 to 0·38; risk difference [RD] −10·2%, 95% CI −11·5 to −7·5; moderate certainty); protection was increased as distance was lengthened

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

---

Can you explain step by step how "SARS-1 could be found spreading between apartment buildings on the wind" and "the Diamond Princess cruise ship showed cases appearing all over the vessel at random" are evidence that standing close to someone is equal risk to standing further away from them?

This would be great evidence against the claim "if you are more than 6ft away, you will not get sick," and your airplane example would be great evidence against the claim "if you are fewer than 6ft away, you will get sick," but neither of these claims were ever made.