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Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

aruarian.dance

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Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#61

Post by dadadad100 »

ranma42 wrote: post #57

> Since there's no point in generating keys for a device which will not be used in Japan, non-Japan SKUs don't have Osaifu-Keitai functionality. So even if you rooted your phone and had full access to the secure element, if your phone's secure element doesn't have the key, you can't use it as an IC card. At least in some cases it is sufficient to change the phone SKU id (which requires temporary rooting) to the Japan…

I believe it is the case that US (at least) iPhones work as IC cards in Japan

Source - I’m sitting in Kyoto right now having travelled all over Tokyo and then on to Kyoto using only my phone to interact with Japan Rail. Verified with two 16Es and a 12. In fact we were able to add the Suica cards to our phones and charge them fromApplePay while still stateside. That let us skip the Welcome Suica line at Haneda and go straight to the monorail. Highly recommended

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#62

Post by Washuu »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #55

I don't understand -- we are talking about 100ms or so of latency? which is almost completely dwarfed by any mechanical action such as the gates actually opening?? This is about as ridiculous as it gets. The videos that compare the UK system with the JP system practically show the same throughput, even when in the UK video most people are using magnetic/paper tickets (which by necessity are going to be much slower th…

> In addition, the annoyance of these gates comes from having to fiddle with the wallet, etc. in order to find the card or the phone, or the fact that multiples tries may be required for the reader to actually read it;

The NFC readers on the gates in Japan will read cards from several centimeters away. My phone, which has Osaifu-Keitai setup, can be left in my bag and I just wave my bag over the reader as I walk by. It is incredibly rare for a misread to occur. They just work.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#63

Post by vachina »

chgs wrote: post #8

I haven’t noticed any delay in london with a card, phone might be 200ms slower than credit catd. I Haven’t been to japan for a decade, are they really that much faster - and does it make a difference? What happens if a card is wrong/doesn’t scan/is invalid/etc at the higher speed?

It matters because you don’t have to interrupt your stride. You don’t tap the card, you kinda just hold it and walk through at full speed.

If the protocol is designed well, high speed doesn’t mean high error rate either.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#64

Post by askvictor »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #55

I don't understand -- we are talking about 100ms or so of latency? which is almost completely dwarfed by any mechanical action such as the gates actually opening?? This is about as ridiculous as it gets. The videos that compare the UK system with the JP system practically show the same throughput, even when in the UK video most people are using magnetic/paper tickets (which by necessity are going to be much slower th…

Many gates in Japan are open by default, and close if they detect someone trying to go through without tapping/inserting ticket/incorrect ticket. I'm not sure why it's not all of them though. But the whole system is built for speed/throughput. Smaller stations outside the cities don't have gates

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#65

Post by coolcase »

They are OK. I find Sydney ones more reliably tap, plus you can use just a credit card to tap, as well as use a credit card to buy the Opal card. You can buy the opal card at 100s of places not just train stations. The actual transport itself is better in Tokyo tho.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#66

Post by Reason077 »

> “The London Underground gates don't work nearly as quick with Google Pay or any of my other contactless cards - what gives?”

They used to (and still do?) work faster with the Oyster fare card. Virtually instant. But paying with EMV cards/devices does add a noticable transaction latency before the gate opens. A few hundred milliseconds, I’d say.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#67

Post by phh »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #55

I don't understand -- we are talking about 100ms or so of latency? which is almost completely dwarfed by any mechanical action such as the gates actually opening?? This is about as ridiculous as it gets. The videos that compare the UK system with the JP system practically show the same throughput, even when in the UK video most people are using magnetic/paper tickets (which by necessity are going to be much slower th…

With regards to latency, in Paris the biggest hurdle to increase trafic is people. You can quite literally walk through like on the Japanese video linked. But the vast majority don't.

The way it's supposed to work is that if you pass your card while the gate is opened, it keeps the gate open longer.

In practice most people wait for the gate to close in front of them before reopening it.

I'm not sure why people do fgaf. I think the reason is that this makes you look like a fraudster going right behind a valid passenger.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#68

Post by socalgal2 »

I think I must be mis-understanding something

> Since there's no point in generating keys for a device which will not be used in Japan, non-Japan SKUs don't have Osaifu-Keitai functionality.

AFAIK, all iPhones from all regions since like iPhone 10 (internet says iPhone 7) support Osaifu-Kaitai unless I don't understand what that means. My USA iPhones works everywhere Suika, Pasmo, Icoca, etc work. Every station, bus, vending machine, convenience store, super market, restaurant, and retail store that accept these forms of payment, they all just work.

Given that all of this works, what is it I'm missing?

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#69

Post by hiatus »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #54
PaulHoule wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not just capital but the interpersonal and bureaucratic factors. Technically the way to think about latency is that a process has N serial steps and you can (a) reduce N, (b) run some of those serial steps in parallel, and (c) speed up the steps. For one thing, different aspects of the organization own the N steps. You might have one step that is difficult to improve because of organizational issues and then th…

> American bad attitude is how you have to wait 20 minutes to board a plane because they have a complicated procedure with 9 priority levels The purpose of the many boarding groups is IMHO, to make those in groups > 1 feel as though they're missing out on some perk that they could get if they paid more. It's an intentional class system where some are encouraged to look down on those who paid less, and vice versa. It'…

I doubt airlines complicate boarding groups to reinforce classes. It is likely all about the bottom line, and nickel and dime-ing you at every opportunity.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#70

Post by socalgal2 »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #55

I don't understand -- we are talking about 100ms or so of latency? which is almost completely dwarfed by any mechanical action such as the gates actually opening?? This is about as ridiculous as it gets. The videos that compare the UK system with the JP system practically show the same throughput, even when in the UK video most people are using magnetic/paper tickets (which by necessity are going to be much slower th…

Maybe because I started my public transportation life in Japan I prefer gates to no gates

(1) it means people pay for usage. Someone going 20km pays more than someone going 1km since they have proof where you entered.

(2) it prevents more accidents/fines? - I had this happen to me in Paris, maybe because I was used to Japan. I was going to Paris Disneyland. I wrongly assumed I couldn't get there without going through a gate. I got on the subway, followed the signs in the tunnels to some train in Châtelet les Halles, was on the train, showed up at Paris Disneyland, was told I had to pay a 3x fine for not having the correct ticket. Or I could get on the train, go back to Paris, get the correct ticket, then come back (2hrs?) In Japan, for the most part, I couldn't have gotten on the train without a ticket and if I did go further than I paid can just adjust my fare at the end. No fines needed or imposed.

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