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The Friendship Recession: The lost art of connecting

happiness.hks.harvard.edu

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Re: The Friendship Recession: The lost art of connecting

#61

Post by em-bee »

lucidguppy wrote: post #21

1. People have lower tolerance for jerks. 2. A few bad apples can spoil a group. 3. Maintaining a group is a thankless job. 4. Third places are money making establishments now rather than community focused. So people save up to go to the ones that they'll remember. So there's competing money for these attractions, and the experience undergoes enshitification. Solutions? - lower the cost of community space so more peo…

that's why i enjoy going to hackerspaces. they are not free of drama, but generally welcoming and give the freedom to do a lot of things, including sitting in a corner in front of your computer ignoring everyone, giving you the freedom to join in whenever you feel comfortable.

Re: The Friendship Recession: The lost art of connecting

#62

Post by paulryanrogers »

redczar wrote: post #49
paulryanrogers wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having talked to folks from the segregation era, you may be thinking of red-lining and white flight. As folks realized cities and schools were desegregating many moved out of urban environments to suburbs and rural areas, then excluded POC through zoning. Even if we accept that as the primary cause (which I don't) that would mean cowardice and racism are the root cause. An irrational fear of people who don't look and…

Redlining and white flight definitely happened. It also happened that cities stopped funding municipal pools and other services. Things like Elks Lodges went into long term decline when women and blacks had to be admitted.

I don't deny white flight and red-lining happened, continues in some places, and is horrible. I'm not convinced that's the sole or even primary reason for modern loneliness.

> Things like Elks Lodges went into long term decline when women and blacks had to be admitted.

People don't need institutionalized racism and misogyny to make friends. They already have a right to be racist and privately associate / not associate.

Re: The Friendship Recession: The lost art of connecting

#63

Post by closewith »

prhn wrote: post #35

I'm not sure what caused this, but I think the expectations of modern friendship have become unrealistic. Maybe it's movies and TV, where a "close friend" is more or less a non judgemental therapist that will throw down in a fight for you. What is a close friend? Before we can start asking people if they have any we should probably agree on a definition. If you use the Hollywood standard, then probably none of us hav…

With respect, I think this is quite a sad and revealing comment, but your Hollywood definition of a friend fits my friends. I wonder if you maybe never experienced friendship but rather just acquaintances.

Re: The Friendship Recession: The lost art of connecting

#64

Post by zug_zug »

prhn wrote: post #35

I'm not sure what caused this, but I think the expectations of modern friendship have become unrealistic. Maybe it's movies and TV, where a "close friend" is more or less a non judgemental therapist that will throw down in a fight for you. What is a close friend? Before we can start asking people if they have any we should probably agree on a definition. If you use the Hollywood standard, then probably none of us hav…

>> What is a close friend? Before we can start asking people if they have any we should probably agree on a definition. If you use the Hollywood standard, then probably none of us have close friends.

I've come to this same conclusion, but rarely express it because it's possible I'm just different. And I'd even go one step further, I think what a lot of people say friendship is, isn't actually what human friendship is in practice. I think these unrealistic expectations undermine real-world friendships because they always fall short.

Theoretical friendship:

- Completely perfect and devoid of all realities of life

- No jealousy, no competition, no negative feelings

- Timeless and immortal

- No effort involved

- Completely balanced and healthy for everybody at all times

- Able to talk about every topic

Realistic friendship:

- Temporary at first, may or may not build into something more

- Often starts with a simple exchange of banter on common interests

- Multiple opinions/topics that are mutually avoided

- One person often tries harder, one person often values the relationship more

- The relationship may or may not even be mutually healthy

- Many will hit a point where they become more effort than they're worth and end (e.g. moving)

- Some will never grow out of one or two common things to bitch about

Re: The Friendship Recession: The lost art of connecting

#65

Post by frankdenbow »

oddthink wrote: post #56

I don't really get where people with kids found these 6.5 hrs / wk to spend on friendships, or even the quoted current averages of 4 hrs / wk. On a workday, there isn't much time. I roll out of bed at 6:30, get the kids up and fed breakfast and out the door. I finally get actually working at 8:30-9:30, depending on if I exercise or not. Stop work in the 5:30-6 range, switch into making dinner, getting kids to eat din…

Off topic but have you seen the app Orgo? Meant for parents juggling kids sports schedules.

Re: The Friendship Recession: The lost art of connecting

#66

Post by BruceEel »

tycho-newman wrote: post #52
BruceEel wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, bad communities fail. They should be allowed to fail. Are there circumstances under which nation states could/should be seen as 'communities', I wonder. And, what would be some sensible ways of detecting and handling failure at such scale.

Sure. That said, the nation state is often little more than regional elites legalizing their control over workers and capital. If your local elites are generally better than the alternative people tend to stick around

Broadly agree. I'm probably too upset to write about the local elites with anything bearing even a passing resemblance to objectivity, but an outbreak of incompetence is the overall impression.

Re: The Friendship Recession: The lost art of connecting

#67

Post by tycho-newman »

closewith wrote: post #59
tycho-newman wrote: post #12

It's not lost, just no longer necessary for survival. Also, bad communities fail. They should be allowed to fail. Until recently, individuals needed to be part of some sort of kinship group to get their needs met and to survive. To communicate with anyone in near real time you had to be close by. We have managed to engineer a society where individuals can survive "on their own" - basically outside their kinship group…

> Also, bad communities fail. They should be allowed to fail. This is wishful thinking. The resilience of communities is orthogonal to their moral worth, which is inherently subjective. Many communities which have horrific traits survive and thrive for centuries and even millennia. Many which I'm sure you would consider morally good are perilously close to failure.

Communities, like all living things, are subject to the whims of extinction events.

When a mountain falls out of the sky, it’s no one’s fault (not even the bad people) that the community failed.

Re: The Friendship Recession: The lost art of connecting

#69

Post by em-bee »

navigate8310 wrote: post #8
andrewstuart wrote: post #3

If you don’t see your friends in person, you’ll lose the thread, and it’s hard to pick up again. Of course that’s an over generalization but for the most part it’s true. Make an effort, make the calls, maintain the relationship by giving it your time, in person. Or the friendship will wither and die.

For most part it is the fear of rejection that prevents someone from making that effort or call to organize.

yes, this and the hope that i'll find a better opportunity to reconnect, like a better reason to call, so that the risk of rejection is reduced.

i recently reconnected to a bunch of people that i haven't spoken to in 20 years. i figured i am not going to find a better opportunity, and if i don't reconnect soon i'll probably never do it.

Re: The Friendship Recession: The lost art of connecting

#70

Post by tycho-newman »

FollowingTheDao wrote: post #57
tycho-newman wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life has a 100 percent fatality rate People fight for communities they want to preserve. There’s no guarantees that fight will be successful. But when they don’t fight? Maybe it’s because they can’t. Or don’t want to. No one should ask them or force them to.

"Life has a 100 percent fatality rate" So, "no one should ask" a suicidal person to not kill themselves "or force them" not to. It is when people cannot fight for themselves that those of us who can fight have to fight even harder. I am saying this as someone who has attempted suicide twice. You are literally arguing in favor for shrugging your shoulders to things like slavery.

No one should ask a suicidal person not to kill themselves.

If you believe in autonomy, every human has the right to decide when and how to end their lives. Slavery denies human autonomy by taking all control away.

Even when you think their decision is a bad one, it’s their life and their decision.

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