Apple should flick Godot a chunk of change to properly get this rolling.
What Apple should do is drive a truckload of money on Valve's doorstep and get a Proton-like system built for M-series Macs.
Native visionOS platform support
61–70 of 346 posts
Re: Native visionOS platform support
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
And since Apple is here, please help adding support for Apple TV. Apple and Android TV support sometimes makes the difference when choosing an engine.
Apple TV for games is super niche, with very little market share in the big scheme of things. Even when it comes to TV, Apple realized they had to create an Apple TV+ app for other platforms to extend the reach of their investment in shows/movies beyond their own hardware.
I think these connected to TV devices are a wasted opportunity for gaming. They are great for family type video games and with some marketing from apple or Google they could sell tons of games.
I happily paid for Beach Buggy, a Mario Kart type game, my kids are loving it and I think that the company makes a lot of money from this game alone.
But the support from Google is abysmal. No search functionality, developer hostility when trying to publish something etc.
Re: Native visionOS platform support
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The visionOS platform doesn't have OpenGL support, as it's not supported by visionOS. Hell would freeze over before Apple conformed and contributed to an existing open standard. They even failed to follow the Godot contribution guide for the PR itself.
> Hell would freeze over before Apple conformed and contributed to an existing open standard. Better get some blankets because Apple has made significant contributions to many open standards - for example, USB-C. And, back in the day, OpenGL. Its a mistake to think of a large company like apple as if it were a person, with their own goals and ideas. Apple is just too big for that. I mean, they have 164,000 staff. Tha…
I think people are (rightfully) upset at the business-oriented decisions that limit MacOS as a platform, prevent competition on iOS and demand annual tithes from their developers like they're peons tilling land for coin. These are fair criticisms, prosecuted in a few courts even, and well within the realm of reasonable change.
Apple makes great things for their users when they collaborate with the industry. That's why we're concerned when they abandon standards and demand convergence on suspicious centralized cloud crap.
Re: Native visionOS platform support
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The visionOS platform doesn't have OpenGL support, as it's not supported by visionOS. Hell would freeze over before Apple conformed and contributed to an existing open standard. They even failed to follow the Godot contribution guide for the PR itself.
> Hell would freeze over before Apple conformed and contributed to an existing open standard. Better get some blankets because Apple has made significant contributions to many open standards - for example, USB-C. And, back in the day, OpenGL. Its a mistake to think of a large company like apple as if it were a person, with their own goals and ideas. Apple is just too big for that. I mean, they have 164,000 staff. Tha…
> The graphics division - these days - seems very intent on doing their own thing.
Apple is a top-down hierarchy with ruthless business strategy. Not a value judgment; merely a fact to keep in mind when entering a business relationship with Apple.
Mike Rockwell, serves as the Vice President of the Vision Products Group. Rockwell has been instrumental in spearheading the Vision Pro project and the underlying visionOS platform. His leadership has been pivotal in advancing Apple’s spatial computing initiatives.
To think he and his team have not made intentional choices to support/advance or undermine OpenXR would be naïve in my view.
Re: Native visionOS platform support
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The visionOS platform doesn't have OpenGL support, as it's not supported by visionOS. Hell would freeze over before Apple conformed and contributed to an existing open standard. They even failed to follow the Godot contribution guide for the PR itself.
> Hell would freeze over before Apple conformed and contributed to an existing open standard. Why the vitriol? Apple did in fact initiate and co-create the WebGPU standard [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebGPU Edit to include quote of parent comment.
I don’t know that that is relevant.
In this context, what’s relevant is OpenXR. Apple’s visionOS does not natively support OpenXR, the open standard developed by the Khronos Group for cross-platform AR/VR development. Apple has not indicated any plans to adopt OpenXR, choosing instead to promote its proprietary frameworks such as ARKit, RealityKit, and PolySpatial for spatial computing on the Vision Pro.
What Apple is finding, however, is that there’s virtually no consumer or developer appetite for visionOS / Vision Pro.
Re: Native visionOS platform support
#66Godot already supports VR via OpenXR. OpenXR is the Khronos-maintained industry standard for VR/AR devices—supported by SteamVR, Oculus, Vive, Pico, Windows Mixed Reality, Quest. Notably absent is visionOS / Vision Pro. I would insist Apple conforms to the industry standard. More scalable, open.
If Godot does nothing and insists that it's on Apple to to support OpenXR, then VR developers who want to support the Vision Pro will have to use Unity or Unreal or some other non-Godot engine. It achieves nothing other than to reduce Godot's relevance. Godot isn't big enough to pressure Apple.
Re: Native visionOS platform support
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The visionOS platform doesn't have OpenGL support, as it's not supported by visionOS. Hell would freeze over before Apple conformed and contributed to an existing open standard. They even failed to follow the Godot contribution guide for the PR itself.
> Hell would freeze over before Apple conformed and contributed to an existing open standard. Why the vitriol? Apple did in fact initiate and co-create the WebGPU standard [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebGPU Edit to include quote of parent comment.
> Cross-platform dev is for low-rent chumps, unless it's our cross-platform dev
From an article talking about their decision to build WebGPU[1]. I was definitely being dramatic, but do think that Apple's overall vibe doesn't mesh well with open standards.
Re: Native visionOS platform support
#68Godot already supports VR via OpenXR. OpenXR is the Khronos-maintained industry standard for VR/AR devices—supported by SteamVR, Oculus, Vive, Pico, Windows Mixed Reality, Quest. Notably absent is visionOS / Vision Pro. I would insist Apple conforms to the industry standard. More scalable, open.
If Godot does nothing and insists that it's on Apple to to support OpenXR, then VR developers who want to support the Vision Pro will have to use Unity or Unreal or some other non-Godot engine. It achieves nothing other than to reduce Godot's relevance. Godot isn't big enough to pressure Apple.
Apple is big enough to sponsor Godot and should if they want to burden their maintainers with extra work long term.
Re: Native visionOS platform support
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Hell would freeze over before Apple conformed and contributed to an existing open standard. Better get some blankets because Apple has made significant contributions to many open standards - for example, USB-C. And, back in the day, OpenGL. Its a mistake to think of a large company like apple as if it were a person, with their own goals and ideas. Apple is just too big for that. I mean, they have 164,000 staff. Tha…
> The graphics division - these days - seems very intent on doing their own thing. Apple is a top-down hierarchy with ruthless business strategy. Not a value judgment; merely a fact to keep in mind when entering a business relationship with Apple. Mike Rockwell, serves as the Vice President of the Vision Products Group. Rockwell has been instrumental in spearheading the Vision Pro project and the underlying visionOS…
> To think he and his team have not made intentional choices to support/advance or undermine OpenXR would be naïve in my view.
I'm sure their choices are intentional. But thats just one business unit. Apple is a huge company. And different areas have different priorities.
Re: Native visionOS platform support
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are they going to do the ongoing maintenance if this is merged in?
Looks like it would be in their interest to do so, so yeah I don’t see why not.
There are many things that would be in Apple's interest to do, but they aren't so that's a complete non-argument.
I think it's a very valid question to ask, as many open source projects I've seen in the past that had to interface with Apple on the developer tooling front had to go through constant pain, as Apple isn't willing to e.g. provide references for certain .plist files, forcing many project to try and reverse-engineer what they do. More precisely there are usually people inside Apple willing to do that, but incapable to do that due to internal structures that result in a lack of clearly defined ownership.
So given that, I would say that if/once the original contributor of this PR moves on(/is made to move on) from that project, there is a good chance that this would also mark the end of cooperation from Apple's side.