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Oda Ujiharu: Why the ‘weakest Samurai warlord’ is admired

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Re: Oda Ujiharu: Why the ‘weakest Samurai warlord’ is admired

#61

Post by kybernetikos »

mantas wrote: post #58
kybernetikos wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, the ability to lend your strength to benefit others is a moral strength and it's key to human flourishing and achievement. Where I might disagree though is if you think that this is the kind of strength that most users of the phrase in question are thinking of.

TBH all the time I saw this phrase was about strong people in the broadest possible way. And always as a positive. It’s very strange to see people defining strong in very narrow bigot way and then trying to spin the whole phrase into a negative. This thread is probably the first time I saw people take such turn. It’s also very strange that people try to portray being weak as a positive. Sure, strong may have very dif…

Whereas I always take this phrase to be refering to a military kind of strength. For example, this whole article tells us that Oda Ujiharu got the nickname "weakest" because of his military incompetence. Your own examples of strength in this thread tend to be mainly martial too.

This kind of strength - the ability to force your will upon others (which is what military strength is, and also the kind of strength that 'Strong Men' dictators have), motivates the (usually incorrect) comparisons to historical empires. There are other kinds of strength - moral strength, resilience, determination, vision, etc they're just not what I think is being talked about with this phrase.

I don't know where you get 'weakness' is being described as a positive in this thread. Weakness can also mean many things, but in this context, it means being susceptible to others forcing their will onto you. It's not a good thing, but differences in strength are natural and impossible to avoid. What is a good thing is when the great mass of comparatively 'weak' people realise that together they are stronger than the tyrant.

Rather than 1984, for an appropriate comparison I'd go to the Bible: - "God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong."

Re: Oda Ujiharu: Why the ‘weakest Samurai warlord’ is admired

#62

Post by more_corn »

WildRyc wrote: post #2

The writing style has me in stiches, it feels at odds with the layout and imagery, but completely fits the character of the story in question. I wonder how well a Real Housewives-style show would work set in the Sengoku-era.

I can’t stand the writing style.

Re: Oda Ujiharu: Why the ‘weakest Samurai warlord’ is admired

#64

Post by Bost »

609venezia wrote: post #10

Man of the people: > Ujiharu’s blind charges may actually have had a noble purpose. Japanese battles involving castles almost always turned into sieges, and those always ended the same way: with the nearby fields and peasant settlements being either destroyed to try and draw the lord out of the castle or looted to feed the occupying army. Some researchers believe that Ujiharu was trying to avoid a siege to save his s…

I wonder how he managed to reconquer his castle. By, uh... besieging it, maybe? Probably? Now repeat that eight times - and honestly, I’m struggling to see where and how exactly he tried to save his subjects.

Sorry, but losing your castle nine times isn’t what capable military leaders do.

Re: Oda Ujiharu: Why the ‘weakest Samurai warlord’ is admired

#65

Post by taneq »

kop316 wrote: post #26
taneq wrote: post #3

Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times. This guy is all of those men, like 10 times over.

Assuming this is what you truly believe, I recommend you read: https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-...

I was just joking, and don’t hold that quote as a serious belief. :) Poe’s law, alas.

Thanks for the article link, so far it’s interesting reading!

Re: Oda Ujiharu: Why the ‘weakest Samurai warlord’ is admired

#66

Post by kop316 »

taneq wrote: post #65
kop316 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming this is what you truly believe, I recommend you read: https://acoup.blog/2020/01/17/collections-the-fremen-mirage-...

I was just joking, and don’t hold that quote as a serious belief. :) Poe’s law, alas. Thanks for the article link, so far it’s interesting reading!

Sometimes it's hard to tell!

The whole blog is worth reading, glad you enjoy it.

Re: Oda Ujiharu: Why the ‘weakest Samurai warlord’ is admired

#67

Post by lmz »

Bost wrote: post #64
609venezia wrote: post #10

Man of the people: > Ujiharu’s blind charges may actually have had a noble purpose. Japanese battles involving castles almost always turned into sieges, and those always ended the same way: with the nearby fields and peasant settlements being either destroyed to try and draw the lord out of the castle or looted to feed the occupying army. Some researchers believe that Ujiharu was trying to avoid a siege to save his s…

I wonder how he managed to reconquer his castle. By, uh... besieging it, maybe? Probably? Now repeat that eight times - and honestly, I’m struggling to see where and how exactly he tried to save his subjects. Sorry, but losing your castle nine times isn’t what capable military leaders do.

Well if he had the loyalty of the surrounding subjects presumably there's a lot less looting during his sieges.

Re: Oda Ujiharu: Why the ‘weakest Samurai warlord’ is admired

#68

Post by astrange »

more_corn wrote: post #62
WildRyc wrote: post #2

The writing style has me in stiches, it feels at odds with the layout and imagery, but completely fits the character of the story in question. I wonder how well a Real Housewives-style show would work set in the Sengoku-era.

I can’t stand the writing style.

It reminds me of Cracked, sort of perfunctory but also like they're actually into it enough to try.

Re: Oda Ujiharu: Why the ‘weakest Samurai warlord’ is admired

#69

Post by mantas »

kybernetikos wrote: post #61
mantas wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBH all the time I saw this phrase was about strong people in the broadest possible way. And always as a positive. It’s very strange to see people defining strong in very narrow bigot way and then trying to spin the whole phrase into a negative. This thread is probably the first time I saw people take such turn. It’s also very strange that people try to portray being weak as a positive. Sure, strong may have very dif…

Whereas I always take this phrase to be refering to a military kind of strength. For example, this whole article tells us that Oda Ujiharu got the nickname "weakest" because of his military incompetence. Your own examples of strength in this thread tend to be mainly martial too. This kind of strength - the ability to force your will upon others (which is what military strength is, and also the kind of strength that '…

A lot of „martial“ skills are needed in daily life. Discipline, planning, ability to operate both on your own and in a team both as a leader and a member. Even physical strength does help, even in modern world. A good CEO and good military commander skillset is very very similar. Just like good specialist and good soldier.

Whenever I meet this phrase, it's talking about specifically those „other kinds of strength“.

I'd even argue that there's no „strength“ in dumbly forcing your will upon others. It's a strength to lead people, to inspire them and get them to follow you. Charisma and leadership is a hell of a strength. But to physically force people... All you need is a number of, possibly weak, people and you'll likely succeed in bending even physically much stronger people.

And weak people banding together can build a tyrant regime. Soviet union is probably good example. Both at initial stage when workers kick started it. And in later stages when usually the weak life scum went to work for the security apparatus of said regime. And reading about other regimes, it seems to be a recurring theme that security apparatus is built out of weak miserable people who look for an revenge opportunity.

Re: Oda Ujiharu: Why the ‘weakest Samurai warlord’ is admired

#70

Post by Yeul »

lmz wrote: post #67
Bost wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how he managed to reconquer his castle. By, uh... besieging it, maybe? Probably? Now repeat that eight times - and honestly, I’m struggling to see where and how exactly he tried to save his subjects. Sorry, but losing your castle nine times isn’t what capable military leaders do.

Well if he had the loyalty of the surrounding subjects presumably there's a lot less looting during his sieges.

That's not how it worked. Armies had the tendency to eat more than the locals could provide. A region that could feed itself suddenly has to provide for thousands of soldiers. This is why war inevitably led to starvation.
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