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I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

scottaaronson.blog

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Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#61

Post by AnimalMuppet »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #21
amazingamazing wrote: post #6

Private colleges shouldn't be taking public money to begin with. Hopefully this ends with colleges having their (private college) tax exempt status revoked. Anyone who's been to Massachusetts knows how much real estate Harvard (and MIT, and BU, and Boston College, etc, etc.) owns. Why should they be tax exempt? End it now. Also, Trump's demands are silly and not even internally consistent.

> Hopefully this ends with colleges having their tax exempt status revoked Harvard was founded to educate America's clergy. If there is a category of non-profits that could hop, skip and jump to religious exemption, it's the Ivy League.

Harvard today is a long way away from a religious college.

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#62

Post by mgkimsal »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #58
rofo1 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say that they are "demands". As if the taxpayers should automatically give billions to Harvard, no matter what Harvard does. That's insanity (to me at least). "Harvard has in recent years failed to live up to both the intellectual and civil rights conditions that justify federal investment." "The United States has invested in Harvard University’s operations because of the value to the country of scholarly discove…

> they are claiming that the Federal government will not invest money until Harvard gets rid of the communist/socialist rhetoric They're changing the terms of the trade after a contract was signed. At the very least, this is the U.S. defaulting on commitments. That said, I broadly agree with you--the U.S. shouldn't be funding Harvard. And the public shouldn't have a say--or continuing economic stake, the way we do wi…

This is Trump's trademark move, writ large. We've all read the reports of him refusing to pay contractors after work is done, ignoring the contracts and saying "sue me". This is who he is, and he's just bringing this playbook (back) to the federal government, cheered on by people until they're personally and directly affected by this behaviour.

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#63

Post by ks2048 »

mrandish wrote: post #52

I think Scott's take here is fair because he acknowledges that most of the Ivy League did (and largely still does) have huge problems with adequately protecting Jewish students and perspectives, and more broadly, intellectual viewpoint diversity of any kind. And prior administrations did push regulatory and funding requirements and policies to support DEI and other hot point issues to an extent that was clearly agend…

> and is, instead, doing the same things "the other guys" did, just in the opposite direction.

I don't think this is a fair characterization at all. Below, is copied from an NYT article [https://archive.ph/ONxlX]. Which of these did previous administrations do?

===

Some of the actions that the Trump administration demanded of Harvard were:

* Conducting plagiarism checks on all current and prospective faculty members.

* Sharing all its hiring data with the Trump administration, and subjecting itself to audits of its hiring while “reforms are being implemented,” at least through 2028.

* Providing all admissions data to the federal government, including information on both rejected and admitted applicants, sorted by race, national origin, grade-point average and performance on standardized tests.

* Immediately shutting down any programming related to diversity, equity and inclusion.

* Overhauling academic programs that the Trump administration says have “egregious records on antisemitism,” including placing certain departments and programs under an external audit. The list includes the Divinity School, the Graduate School of Education, the School of Public Health and the Medical School, among many others.

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#64

Post by kombine »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #50
kombine wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you have an example? If you lived under the rock the entire 2024, here is one: https://www.facebook.com/scott.aaronson.5/posts/pfbid0H5mDom... > the 20-year-old Israeli who’s now in notoriously antisemitic Malmö, Sweden It's because of Aaronson and others that the original meaning of antisemitism almost entirely lost its meaning. They perverted it to suit their political agenda.

Do you have an example of student being called an antisemite by Aaronson?

People like Aaronson are smart enough not to directly say that. Here is a Berkeley professor likening student protests to Kristallnacht:

https://www.facebook.com/alyosha.efros/posts/pfbid0UapTQuH6p...

And completely forgetting to mention there is a Jewish block literally in the photo they took themselves.

Obviously, they never mention the actual violence by the Zionist counter-protesters, which in my experience far exceeds that of the pro-Palestinian proteseters.

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#65

Post by sorcerer-mar »

mgkimsal wrote: post #24
sorcerer-mar wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidrosowsky/2020/06/01/why-no...

"In fact, it is neither strategic for the university, nor respectful of the donors’ intent. It is neither financially responsible/prudent, nor is it permissible." Did the donors intend to have the entire university system ground down to the point where the ability to fund the donors' plans is completely gone? Donors funding programs to encourage research in to areas of science the Trump administration wants to outlaw…

The point is that there's neither as much money nor as much flexibility as people imagine there to be.

We shouldn't be flippant about these attacks because these institutions have what appear to be (but functionally are not really) giant war chests.

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#66

Post by EA-3167 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #17

"...once the government did take away funding and present its ultimatum—completely outside the process specified in Title VI law—Columbia’s administration quickly agreed to everything asked, to howls of outrage from the left-leaning faculty. Yet despite its total capitulation, the government has continued to hold Columbia’s medical research and other science funding hostage, while inventing a never-ending list of add…

The shame IMO is that this is going to further polarize people along the lines of "Yay, stick it to those rich schools" and "Omg, this is literally the second coming of Hitler."

It would be lovely to have a broad conversation about why it makes no sense for the government to play HR manager for universities, and ALSO ask why billions in tax money is perennially given to ultra-wealthy, exclusive universities who are often more than capable of finding opportunities for profit in the private sector. Because the question seems to be: "Is Harvard capable of remaining solvent without a couple of billion per year? If that's the case, what's going on there? What is the taxpayer getting out of this that it wouldn't be able to get otherwise? Is there no other funding model?"

Then we have this: https://networkcontagion.us/reports/11-6-23-the-corruption-o...

Which opens the question of whether or not cutting funding is likely to get what the government wants, or further drive universities to seek funding from potentially hostile foreign governments.

And I think depending on where the money goes and how it's spent, sometimes the answers range across a whole spectrum. But as I said, instead of that conversation, we're stuck with more politics as a team sport.

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#68

Post by user982 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #50
kombine wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you have an example? If you lived under the rock the entire 2024, here is one: https://www.facebook.com/scott.aaronson.5/posts/pfbid0H5mDom... > the 20-year-old Israeli who’s now in notoriously antisemitic Malmö, Sweden It's because of Aaronson and others that the original meaning of antisemitism almost entirely lost its meaning. They perverted it to suit their political agenda.

Do you have an example of student being called an antisemite by Aaronson?

Sure, here's his characterization of the protesting students as of two weeks ago (https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8754):

"Leftist Students and Faculty: We’d sooner burn universities to the ground than allow them to remain safe for the hated Zionist Jews, the baby-killing demons of the earth. We’ll disrupt their classes, bar them from student activities, smash their Hillel centers, take over campus buildings and quads, and chant for Hezbollah and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades to eradicate them like vermin. We’ll do all this because we’ve so thoroughly learned the lessons of the Holocaust."

Here are Scott Aaronson's claims about Trump deportees (https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=8758):

"It’s important to add: from what I know, some of the people being detained and deported are genuinely horrible. Some worked for organizations linked to Hamas, and cheered the murder of Jews."

Here is his attempt at satire, in defense of genocide (https://scottaaronson.blog/?p=7957):

"Meanwhile, at elite academic institutions across the region, the calls for justice have been deafening. “From the Nile to the Sea of Reeds, free Egypt from Jacob’s seeds!” students chanted. Some protesters even taunted passing Hebrew slaves with “go back to Canaan!”, though others were quick to disavow that message. According to Professor O’Connor, it’s important to clarify that the Hebrews don’t belong in Canaan either, and that finding a place where they do belong is not the protesters’ job."

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#69

Post by bediger4000 »

mgkimsal wrote: post #41

For anyone who hasn't read the letter... https://www.harvard.edu/research-funding/wp-content/uploads/... Trump administration is both demanding a end to all DEI programs, and mandating "viewpoint diversity". "Every department or field found to lack viewpoint diversity must be reformed by hiring a critical mass of new faculty within that department or field who will provide viewpoint diversity; every teaching unit fou…

"Viewpoint diversity" looks like it means something other than a literal interpretation. Without a definition of that phrase, it would appear that "abandoning DEI" would conflict with "viewpoint diversity".

Give what "freedom of speech absolutism" meant in practice, I'm guessing that "viewpoint diversity" is a demand for primacy of far-right views, but I could certainly be wrong

Re: I speak at Harvard as it faces its biggest crisis since 1636

#70

Post by mgkimsal »

sorcerer-mar wrote: post #65
mgkimsal wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"In fact, it is neither strategic for the university, nor respectful of the donors’ intent. It is neither financially responsible/prudent, nor is it permissible." Did the donors intend to have the entire university system ground down to the point where the ability to fund the donors' plans is completely gone? Donors funding programs to encourage research in to areas of science the Trump administration wants to outlaw…

The point is that there's neither as much money nor as much flexibility as people imagine there to be. We shouldn't be flippant about these attacks because these institutions have what appear to be (but functionally are not really) giant war chests.

I'm not flippant about it, and do not take the suggestion of using some endowment money for 'non-specified purposes' lightly. I don't think it should be completely off the table. The Trump administration has relied on people and companies responding to their aggression and violation of norms within the bounds of normalcy. None of this is normal. We are being gish galloped with attacks on all fronts of societal norms at once - threatening law firms, universities, students, immigrants. Attack the powerless and those with some power to protect those powerless at the same time.
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