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The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

daringfireball.net

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Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#61

Post by graeme »

rezmason wrote: post #53
graeme wrote: post #16

It's certainly possible there's a backend flag on the site. But from the comments I see on Reddit, I suspect there may be a simpler explanation: a lot of people for some reason really dislike John Gruber and view him as someone who slavishly praises Apple. I'm a big John Gruber fan, and I don't think this is true in the slightest. I think he thinks carefully, forms his own opinions, and is very willing to intensely c…

[flagged]

I doubt you intended it, but your comment actually exemplifies why a lot of his articles likely get flagged and downranked. The comment is contentious, and also asserts that it is per se impossible for someone to disagree with the EU's stance on interoperability in good faith or that there may be legit downsides.

Then you deliver an extended personal attack for some reason. And one that really doesn't seem supported on the merits. Gruber co-created markdown and published a reasonably well received app, Vesper.

I think you're in good faith, and I mean my comment in that spirit. I point out the features of yours to show why the articles may get flagged if they generate comments that go against the spirit of the site.

I think there's a strong case your comment goes against comment guidelines 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 and 7

I glanced at the rest of your comments. None of them are remotely close to this! You're a polite and interesting commentator.

My thesis is that for whatever reason John Gruber manages to draw this style of comment out of people, and that this has increased over time as anti Apple sentiment has grown.

That's not John Gruber's fault and that isn't your fault, it's just the dynamic that emerges.

Comment Guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#62

Post by rezmason »

graeme wrote: post #61
rezmason wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I doubt you intended it, but your comment actually exemplifies why a lot of his articles likely get flagged and downranked. The comment is contentious, and also asserts that it is per se impossible for someone to disagree with the EU's stance on interoperability in good faith or that there may be legit downsides. Then you deliver an extended personal attack for some reason. And one that really doesn't seem supported…

Thanks for bringing my attention to the comment guidelines, I'll try to keep to them in the future. I assure you, I do write here in good faith.

I'm open to listening to those who oppose the EU's position on Apple's ecosystem. I draw the line at people comparing Apple's circumstances with those portrayed in Harrison Bergeron. Apple, its developer community and its app ecosystem are unlike anyone in that story, and they certainly aren't oppressed rebels. That comparison was an editorial choice made by John Gruber in his coverage of tech news, including a link to a copy of the story he personally typeset. It rang loudly then of sentimental bias, and it's still ringing.

I don't have evidence of the makeup of the Daring Fireball readership, but many of them are at least adjacent to the tech industry, and so his words have incredible reach, Hacker News notwithstanding. But what are his credentials? When he weighs the merits of a programming language, an API, a platform, or anything technical, I want him to speak from experience. Collaborating with Aaron Swartz twenty-one years ago on Markdown is respectfully not very relevant technical experience in the domains DF traditionally covers. Vesper was one ObjC app written by three people in 2013. I'm glad it was well-received, but again, what significance does Gruber's experience have? Why should the industry listen to him when he (admittedly not so often nowadays) discusses software development? If asked, I think he'd strongly agree that people in power should have considerable relevant experience.

PS— the article that began this discussion is, "The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss". As you can see, I've been eager, not afraid, to discuss the merits of Daring Fireball, though not so eager as to upvote it on HN.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#63

Post by bigyabai »

graeme wrote: post #61
rezmason wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I doubt you intended it, but your comment actually exemplifies why a lot of his articles likely get flagged and downranked. The comment is contentious, and also asserts that it is per se impossible for someone to disagree with the EU's stance on interoperability in good faith or that there may be legit downsides. Then you deliver an extended personal attack for some reason. And one that really doesn't seem supported…

The parent's point stands. Their comment isn't lacking context, and fundamentally it sounds like we all agree with their argument; the sentiment towards Apple has changed, and the environment these blogposts exist in is not the same. Gruber started blogging in an era when people had hope for Tim Cook, a sentiment that has basically dried up entirely today. The starry-eyed optimism for local-first development is dead in the Apple Intelligence era, and Apple's vision for the future is muddled.

Yes, this is the dynamic that emerges. When trust breaks down over silly things like keyboard reliability and right to repair and third-party app stores and $99/year service fees, people that were once rooting for Apple start to question why we hold out hope at all. It's not Gruber's fault for remaining faithful, but many of his modern articles are out-of-touch with the reality of Apple's situation. It's like performative bewilderment at this point, which this OP article really seems to reflect.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#64

Post by graeme »

rezmason wrote: post #62
graeme wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt you intended it, but your comment actually exemplifies why a lot of his articles likely get flagged and downranked. The comment is contentious, and also asserts that it is per se impossible for someone to disagree with the EU's stance on interoperability in good faith or that there may be legit downsides. Then you deliver an extended personal attack for some reason. And one that really doesn't seem supported…

Thanks for bringing my attention to the comment guidelines, I'll try to keep to them in the future. I assure you, I do write here in good faith. I'm open to listening to those who oppose the EU's position on Apple's ecosystem. I draw the line at people comparing Apple's circumstances with those portrayed in Harrison Bergeron. Apple, its developer community and its app ecosystem are unlike anyone in that story, and th…

Thanks in turn for the thoughtful reply. I still hold to my own view, but you've dramatically raised the quality of argument I'd have to make to give a satisfying reply. Which is what I think Hacker News should aspire to.

My interest was largely to point out what I saw as the meta trend around discussion of Daring Fireball posts, so I'll leave the debate there or we could be here all night. But I wish you well

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#66

Post by epaga »

jgruber wrote: post #40
cptcobalt wrote: post #32

I would like to see more DF on HN. The something rotten in Cupertino was a shattering post—people in my circle who do not read DF were discussing and sending it around, and I work at a place where so many dang people read HN. So I agree with Gruber’s concern. I’m surprised this post too is already flagged.

Me too.

Agree!

To be clear though it is not some backend thing by dang etc. but rather users with enough reputation to get the flag button are flagging your posts just because they don’t like you. That is the likeliest explanation.

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#68

Post by anon6362 »

flats wrote: post #56
insaneirish wrote: post #51

Can someone please explain the flag? Given the amount of stupid things that end up on this site, this is asinine.

Strongly agree. I don't see how this post in any way deserves flagging based on the guidelines. Is there no karmic penalty for false flags?

[flagged]

Re: The Website Hacker News Is Afraid to Discuss

#69

Post by anon6362 »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #13

Two wrongs don’t make a right. HN and DF are both stubbornly wrong about refusing to use good typography and a sensible approach to responsive design. I know that stubbornness and misplaced pride go hand in hand, but it’s harming the both of them. I would definitely read DF more often if I didn’t have to use Safari’s reader mode just to be able to read it.

Seems like bikeshedding to bring up typography. The greater matter is refusal to engage in civil, if lively, discussion and instead retreat into prior restraint and helicopter paternalistic declarations of what can and cannot be discussed.
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