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OpenAI Says It's "Over" If It Can't Steal All Your Copyrighted Work

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Re: OpenAI Says It's "Over" If It Can't Steal All Your Copyrighted Work

#61

Post by r00fus »

JohnFen wrote: post #15

What I don't understand is why this is always presented as a "race" that "we" have to win or else. It's just such a strange framing to me and every time I see it, it's presented as some sort of self-evident truth, but I don't think it's self-evident at all.

The "race" analogy is entirely driven by venture capital framing: they are interested in controlling the market usually done by getting to a certain dominant position within the overall space thereby crowding out new entrants and being able to direct where the market goes.

China's lead efforts on the other hand look to the long view - by releasing their products as open-source they can improve on each other's work. No one controls the market but there is constant competition and innovation.

All this is besides the point, however, for this article claims that OpenAI is using China as an excuse to have unfettered access to all copyrighted works through the fair use loophole.

So the crux is whether we believe in "innovation uber alles" or intellectual property rights.

Re: OpenAI Says It's "Over" If It Can't Steal All Your Copyrighted Work

#62

Post by r00fus »

josefritzishere wrote: post #2

The product requires crime? I feel like most products do not require crime. This is not a good sales pitch.

The product doesn't require crime, but the massive profitability of their business model requires it.

And the red herring that "China will steal it if we don't do it first".

Re: OpenAI Says It's "Over" If It Can't Steal All Your Copyrighted Work

#63

Post by slowtrek »

EdwardKrayer wrote: post #60
roxolotl wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But this is technology, in my opinion, has the risk of eventually triggering a form of social stratification. The focus should be on keeping the technology ubiquitous, accessible, and unrestricted. But this is exactly what proposals like you’re responding to are trying to do. Ignoring the morality this is an economic issue. Massive economic value is potentially going to be created by stealing from individuals. Why…

You're right. If there are methods to get creators paid, while ensuring unfettered access to all - it absolutely should happen. The legal system in America doesn't have a good track record of nuance, especially when nuance is necessary. My views come from the idea that the American legal system will either smite them into bankruptcy, or it will give them the precedent they need to exempt past violations, and carry on…

Nuance is needed

So much so that your first reply froze me and made me think. This is not easy, it's absolutely in our nature to gate keep knowledge.

Re: OpenAI Says It's "Over" If It Can't Steal All Your Copyrighted Work

#64

Post by scoofy »

JohnFen wrote: post #15

What I don't understand is why this is always presented as a "race" that "we" have to win or else. It's just such a strange framing to me and every time I see it, it's presented as some sort of self-evident truth, but I don't think it's self-evident at all.

I mean, I do think we should want to win the race, the point is they want to keep all the money. You can literally just offer equity as compensation to "content providers" and we won't have any problems with liquidity issues on the development side, and people can still be compensated or opt out.

OpenAI doesn't want to do that.

Re: OpenAI Says It's "Over" If It Can't Steal All Your Copyrighted Work

#65

Post by sifar »

thewanderer1983 wrote: post #38
JohnFen wrote: post #15

What I don't understand is why this is always presented as a "race" that "we" have to win or else. It's just such a strange framing to me and every time I see it, it's presented as some sort of self-evident truth, but I don't think it's self-evident at all.

Nature is a complex system. Many are in competition, it's not just humans. Most of these systems form a balance (see biodiversity). Due to resource scarcity, power tends to form which gives these power structures and advantage. Humans form these power structures arounds groups. This has been happening for as long as humans tribalised. Right now, humans can form these groups at nation-state level complexity and to som…

>>Nature is a complex system.

There is no winner take all in an ecosystem. If it happens, that ecosystem collapses !!

It is strange that you use this as an example yet fail to understand it fully.

Nature is a complex system ... with adaptive feedback. Every process is a cycle - has feedbacks that amplifies/regulates it. Yes there are apex predators, but there is no winner take all in an ecosystem. Living beings coexist.

Re: OpenAI Says It's "Over" If It Can't Steal All Your Copyrighted Work

#66

Post by EdwardKrayer »

slowtrek wrote: post #63
EdwardKrayer wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right. If there are methods to get creators paid, while ensuring unfettered access to all - it absolutely should happen. The legal system in America doesn't have a good track record of nuance, especially when nuance is necessary. My views come from the idea that the American legal system will either smite them into bankruptcy, or it will give them the precedent they need to exempt past violations, and carry on…

Nuance is needed So much so that your first reply froze me and made me think. This is not easy, it's absolutely in our nature to gate keep knowledge.

These comments made me realize my viewpoints surrounding this issue are heavily based on the American legal system being very binary, with the majority of tech companies going all or nothing. Appeal your way up to the supreme court, and pray for the all.

In this case, it feels like the two most likely outcomes both hurt us.

Re: OpenAI Says It's "Over" If It Can't Steal All Your Copyrighted Work

#67

Post by cadamsdotcom »

basisword wrote: post #43
cadamsdotcom wrote: post #19

You have to remember a company is not a social being with balanced obligations. Its obligation is to its owners and not to society. If OpenAI’s leadership weren’t saying precisely this, they wouldn’t be doing their jobs.

>> Its obligation is to its owners and not to society. This isn't true at all. It has an obligation to follow the law of the society it operates in, even if that results in lower profits.

I agree with you. It has to follow the rules.

Unfortunately the society this company operates in is highly Machiavellian and can’t improve because people are too busy hating each other and also the rules it does have aren’t being enforced very well and finally, this type of lobbying is part of the culture in the US, it’s so expected it’d be weird if they didn’t do it.

Re: OpenAI Says It's "Over" If It Can't Steal All Your Copyrighted Work

#68

Post by srhtftw »

nadermx wrote: post #54
klabb3 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> against progress of advancements for arts and sciences. No it’s always against commercialization. That’s why we have exceptions like political commentary, satire and in particular arts and sciences . The issue is about making money from someone else’s work. You can still disagree with it of course, but let’s have an honest discussion.

If that was the case, then cooking recipes would be all copyrighted, and you would have to pay a licensing fee every time you made spaghetti. The complexity of copyright is even referenced in the Wikipedia supreme court ruling I linked too. Yet you ask for an honest discussion? What was not forthright in my reply?

A mere listing of ingredients or contents, or a simple set of directions, is uncopyrightable.

https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ33.pdf

> ... aa recipe that creatively explains or depicts how or why to perform a particular activity may be copyrightable. A registration for a recipe may cover the written description or explanation of a process that appears in the work, as well as any photographs or illustrations that are owned by the applicant. However, the registration will not cover the list of ingredients that appear in each recipe, the underlying process for making the dish, or the resulting dish itself.

Re: OpenAI Says It's "Over" If It Can't Steal All Your Copyrighted Work

#69

Post by jdenning »

fffernan wrote: post #29
xyzzyz wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exact same way OpenAI does: by scraping data, ingesting it, processing it, incorporating it into its proprietary system, and using it to serve responses to queries. This is not to say that I thing that any of this is wrong. I think that if what Google or OpenAI do is illegal, then the law is wrong, not Google or OpenAI.

Last I checked Google is not buying or pirating books for Google Search they just grab free data that has been provided.

You might want to check again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors_Guild,_Inc._v._Google,....

> For works still under copyright, Google scanned and entered the whole work into their searchable database, but only provided "snippet views" of the scanned pages in search results to users.

Re: OpenAI Says It's "Over" If It Can't Steal All Your Copyrighted Work

#70

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

JohnFen wrote: post #15

What I don't understand is why this is always presented as a "race" that "we" have to win or else. It's just such a strange framing to me and every time I see it, it's presented as some sort of self-evident truth, but I don't think it's self-evident at all.

It seems like the term "race" comes from "arms race".

Perhaps the future of Silicon Valley is to be the home of defense contractors.

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/papers/2024/SiliconValle...

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