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Goravel: A Go framework inspired by Laravel

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Re: Goravel: A Go framework inspired by Laravel

#61

Post by KronisLV »

mkl95 wrote: post #32

It seems like every middling company out there wants to bolt in popular architecture from other languages into Go, particularly Java enterprise patterns. Why not use the actual language or framework your engineers like instead?

> Why not use the actual language or framework your engineers like instead?

Consistency and predictability, but with a more convenient technology underneath.

I don't want to mess around with JDK runtimes or .NET. I don't want to experiment with various static packaging techniques and wonder whether any sort of reflection will be incompatible with that or any of the large frameworks that pre-date it will work. The runtimes themselves are good, but that's just busywork.

At the same time, I do want the ability to pick up a project made with a certain framework and approximately know how things work and how to do stuff. Less undocumented internal utilities and custom libraries, more of something predictable - controllers here, services there, repositories over here, here's how the ORM works that's tightly integrated with everything else, here's how you make a RESTful API. Think more like Angular than React to use a good front end example (e.g. a pre-packaged setup with batteries included). Or, you know, a direct comparison between the likes of Ruby on Rails, Laravel, Django, Spring Boot, ASP.NET etc., maybe not verbatim, but something consistent and close enough.

Go's standard library is also pretty good and includes a lot of stuff. The IDE experience is good (no need to even think that much about configuring your own code formatting), the compiler is good, platform support is good, runtime performance is good while the language remains higher level and easier than the likes of Rust, it's not hard to get everything into a single self-contained executable. There's numerous projects that have sprung up around that, even something like K3s (full Kubernetes distribtion) can be downloaded as a single file. Also really good for just CLI utilities, or full blown desktop apps (e.g. with Wails).

In other words, to take the technological advancements, shed the legacy cruft and still be able to have many projects be predictable and keep the productivity high, regardless of whether the greater language community is more interested in a grab bag of more self-contained libraries.

Re: Goravel: A Go framework inspired by Laravel

#62

Post by JadoJodo »

I love Go and I love Laravel, but I do find the naming an odd choice; it seems like borrowed clout. Especially so when Laravel's own name is a soft reference to the work of C.S. Lewis. Why not pick a unique, "Go-esque" name and still nod to Laravel in the title/description?

Re: Goravel: A Go framework inspired by Laravel

#64

Post by homebrewer »

kflgkans wrote: post #45
zero_shift wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Laravel is particularly GoF-ish, if that's what you mean. In terms of patterns it's mostly fairly simple. > Why not use the actual language or framework your engineers like instead? Go does not provide "enough" by itself to completely furnish my needs. And having a framework that uses common terminology and patterns allows you to get s__t done and not waste time bikeshedding. "Microservices are cattle,…

Could you give a few examples what such frameworks provide that you need, that Go plus a few simple libraries doesn't provide?

Same reason IDEs — when you really know them — allow for quicker development compared to using primitive text editors with a bunch of third-party plugins duck-taped together. When you understand the framework, everything is written to the same standard, behaves in similar ways, and is where you expect it to be. Adding things like background job processing requires changing one line of config.

Also, one major thing I'm missing personally is automatically generated OpenAPI specifications + API documentation & API clients autogenerated from it. Last time I checked Go, you had to write the spec manually, which is just ridiculous — the code already has all the necessary info, and duplicating that effort is time-consuming and error-prone (the spec says one thing, the code does another). This may be out of date, but if it still isn't, it is enough to disqualify the stack completely for me.

Also, I don't think there anything similar in the Go world to these administration panels:

https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/5.1/ref/contrib/admin/

https://activeadmin.info

https://nova.laravel.com

which are just fantastic for intranet projects and/or quick prototyping.

Re: Goravel: A Go framework inspired by Laravel

#65

Post by sunaookami »

Daril wrote: post #30
anta40 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you use if ORM is to be avoided? Perhaps something like https://github.com/sqlc-dev/sqlc ?

I'm using this at the moment : https://jmoiron.github.io/sqlx/ Didnt' now about sqlc, it seems very interesting ! Thanks for sharing !

Seconding sqlx, it's wonderful, is not an ORM and doesn't need code gen.

Re: Goravel: A Go framework inspired by Laravel

#66

Post by someothherguyy »

mogaal wrote: post #55

One of the things I love about Laravel is that I can just drop it into share-hosting and forget about it. At the same time, my daily work demands Golang 80% of the time. I keep having mix feelings when having this dichotomy

> One of the things I love about Laravel is that I can just drop it into share-hosting and forget about it

Why can't you do that with anything?

Re: Goravel: A Go framework inspired by Laravel

#67

Post by someothherguyy »

Daril wrote: post #20

I'm not a fan of the complexity added by this and other similar frameworks. PHP and Go are very different languages, so trying to replicate the same concepts for one language to another I don't think it is a good idea. One of the things I would discard would be the use of an ORM library : every library adds another level of complexity and doesn't allow to see what is happening when the SQL statements are built. In my…

https://martinfowler.com/bliki/OrmHate.html

Re: Goravel: A Go framework inspired by Laravel

#68

Post by evantbyrne »

Daril wrote: post #20

I'm not a fan of the complexity added by this and other similar frameworks. PHP and Go are very different languages, so trying to replicate the same concepts for one language to another I don't think it is a good idea. One of the things I would discard would be the use of an ORM library : every library adds another level of complexity and doesn't allow to see what is happening when the SQL statements are built. In my…

Anti-ORM sentiment is a senior developer red flag. It indicates pretty clearly that an engineer views their work more as an art project, rather than valuing achieving the actual business goals in any reasonable time frame.

Re: Goravel: A Go framework inspired by Laravel

#69

Post by halfcat »

bborud wrote: post #35
weatherlite wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure there's a Go equivalent of Laravel, so not sure which tooling you suggest people adopt. If I want an all inclusive MVC (or similar) web development framework with all batteries included - why not build a Go Laravel? Python has Django Java has Spring (among others) C# has asp.net Ruby has Rails PHP has Laravel What does Go have?

Go has a simpler approach that encourages you to express yourself more directly, does away with heavy frameworks that take longer to learn than the language itself, and it encourages you to structure solutions in mechanical sympathy with the problem rather than start with a solution and then try to adapt the problem to a given solution. Big frameworks are extremely limiting. They also make escape harder when you real…

This whole comment has strong C language “we don’t need a package manager, we write everything ourselves” vibes.

The benefit of something like Django is it provides strong convention, loosely enforced. Everyone on your team needs to know one thing. Everyone can understand the convention, understand each other’s code, new features get added the same way. But it’s also loosely enforced, it’s just Python. So when you need to split from the framework’s convention, you have unlimited escape hatches.

If you want a case study, see Instagram.

Re: Goravel: A Go framework inspired by Laravel

#70

Post by KronisLV »

Daril wrote: post #44
movedx wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the things I would discard would be the use of an ORM library ... In my opinion, it is better to create some simple methods for each object that implement the CRUD operations and build the SQL statements directly. Have you done this for any complex system? I'd love to see you do this for the AzerothCore: it has 298 tables, 3,010,875 rows across those tables, and one table (quest_template) has 105 columns. In…

Yes, I understand your point of view, but in my experience these ORM libraries when you create a class or a structure and then the library build the SQL code behind the scenes can suffer from some relevant issues : 1. you have no control over the generated SQL and because it has to be generic and db agnostic, might not be the best option depending on the database you are currently using 2. when something doesn't work…

> 1. you have no control over the generated SQL

Depending on the tech in use, there's usually some sort of an escape hatch, such as writing your own native SQL queries that take advantage of the exact functionality you need, while letting you keep the 90% of the rest CRUD based on the automatically generated stuff.

Plus, nothing is preventing you from putting complex querying in a DB view and then have a read only mapping for the ORM against that, giving you the best of both worlds - using the DB for what it's good at, keeping things relatively simple and yet powerful on the app side.

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