It seems like a lot of these proposals are coming out of Europe—assuming I’m not mistaken (and I may well be), why is Europe cracking down so much on privacy?
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Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes
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Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes
#62Signal is headquartered in the US and presumably has no employees in Sweden (and perhaps the entire European Union). There is utterly nothing the Swedish government can do to stop Signal except for pressuring app stores and/or ISP-level censorship. Preemptive surrender is extremely disappointing, especially for a non-profit - there isn’t even any revenue that can be ‘fined’ by the EU!
The app stores are run by companies with a presence in the EU.
What's funny is that it's other EU laws from totally different parts of government which are, at the same time, pushing to allow for side loading of apps and alternate app stores on iOS and Android.
https://www.google.com/search?q=apple%20eu%20alternative%20a...
The end result of which, if done at large scale, means that an EU government couldn't ban signal, short of forcing all its domestic ISPs to be downstream of a China type great firewall, or simply null route all the IP space where signal's servers are located.
Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes
#63It seems like a lot of these proposals are coming out of Europe—assuming I’m not mistaken (and I may well be), why is Europe cracking down so much on privacy?
Sweden is having an epidemic of Crime as a Service, where minors are recruited online to do killings etc for cash. Secure messaging makes it very hard to find the leaders of these crimes.
Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
In fact, they are negative because they say that this can't be done without opening up the service to vulnerabilities that could be used by others. > I ett brev till regeringen skriver Försvarsmakten att lagförslaget inte kommer kunna förverkligas ”utan att införa sårbarheter och bakdörrar som kan komma att nyttjas av tredje part”. > In a letter to the government, the Swedish Armed Forces writes that the legislative…
That specific quote is in the original comment of this thread :)
Yes, but your deduction is incorrect. They're saying the SAF are negative _and_ they recommend their personell to use the service, not that they are negative _because_ they recommend it.
Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes
#65It seems like a lot of these proposals are coming out of Europe—assuming I’m not mistaken (and I may well be), why is Europe cracking down so much on privacy?
Because European tradition is to have strong bureaucracies steering the „democratic“ processes. And encryption is a wrench hitting those mechanisms. Another one is the raise of all sorts of independent journalists/bloggers/etc.
Those themes keep recurring both on EU as well as national levels. Including nations that ain't EU members.
As a citizen of EU member, I’d love to change this discourse. But there seems to be very few options to vote for. And then such BS happens at levels that are practically out of reach of democratical process.
Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes
#66Signal is headquartered in the US and presumably has no employees in Sweden (and perhaps the entire European Union). There is utterly nothing the Swedish government can do to stop Signal except for pressuring app stores and/or ISP-level censorship. Preemptive surrender is extremely disappointing, especially for a non-profit - there isn’t even any revenue that can be ‘fined’ by the EU!
> There is utterly nothing the Swedish government can do to stop Signal except for pressuring app stores and/or ISP-level censorship
They can go after executives and employees of foreign companies, too. The charges may not mean much unless those employees travel through Sweden, but if the political winds change in the future then they may be able to convince other countries to enforce their charges against employees as well.
It’s reasonable for a company to avoid risking their employees becoming targets of detention for international travel.
It also more effectively highlights the political issue within Sweden if people there see the consequences of the laws of their elected officials rather than having those laws silently ignored by a company that takes the legal risk upon themselves.
Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes
#67Signal is headquartered in the US and presumably has no employees in Sweden (and perhaps the entire European Union). There is utterly nothing the Swedish government can do to stop Signal except for pressuring app stores and/or ISP-level censorship. Preemptive surrender is extremely disappointing, especially for a non-profit - there isn’t even any revenue that can be ‘fined’ by the EU!
I keep seeing this idea that because a company is headquartered in some place, means they don't have to follow the laws of the countries where they operate. Yes, Signal may be headquartered in the US, but that doesn't mean they can just ignore the laws of other countries, which is exactly what may happen here, depending on the outcome. Sweden may propose a backdoor (a utterly shitty idea, I agree) which Signal may de…
> I keep seeing this idea that because a company is headquartered in some place, means they don't have to follow the laws of the countries where they operate.
My friend's medium size regional ISP is headquartered in the US and as a hosting company certainly has customers who violate any number of censorship, blasphemy, etc laws in Iran, Russia, Myanmar, Pakistan, Bangladesh, just to name a few.
Signal doesn't "operate" in Sweden any more or any less than any other internet based service which has zero servers, offices, bank accounts or other physical presence in the country.
Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
According to the original article (Swedish: https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/signal-lamnar-sverige-om-... ), the reason for the armed forces to be against it is because they recently started advocating for its personnel to start using Signal to reduce eavesdropping, so backdooring Signal would decrease the armed forces security. > Men Försvarsmakten är negativa och nyligen uppmanade försvaret sin personal att börja…
In fact, they are negative because they say that this can't be done without opening up the service to vulnerabilities that could be used by others. > I ett brev till regeringen skriver Försvarsmakten att lagförslaget inte kommer kunna förverkligas ”utan att införa sårbarheter och bakdörrar som kan komma att nyttjas av tredje part”. > In a letter to the government, the Swedish Armed Forces writes that the legislative…
This was already commented by the original comment in this thread and is not mutually exclusive to GP's comment. What is your point?
Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes
#69FYI the EU wide proposal to scan all your private messages using an AI agent on your devices also originated in Sweden by EU Commissioner Ylva Johansson in 2022.
> EU Commissioner Ylva Johansson has also been heavily criticised regarding the process in which the proposal was drafted and promoted. A transnational investigation by European media outlets revealed the close involvement of foreign technology and law enforcement lobbyists in the preparation of the proposal. This was also highlighted by digital rights organisations, which Johansson rejected to meet on three occasions. Commissioner Johansson was also criticised for the use of micro-targeting techniques to promote its controversial draft proposal, which violated the EU's data protection and privacy rules.
Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes
#70There is a reason why Free Software (as in freedom) was invented: To ensure that those who create the software do not overpower those who use the software. The idea, that companies or politicians can force the user's machine to work against it's owner, is wrong. And it is wrong, because to be a human in the 21st century means in most cases, that your digital devices and your digital interactions are a core part of wh…
Unfortunately, when we switched from letters to emails, the legal privacy protections we enjoyed back then, were not carried over do the digital realm. We're still suffering and have to use encryption to protect ourselves from the lack of legal protection.