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Paxlovid: You'd have expected more

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Re: Paxlovid: You'd have expected more

#61

Post by thenerdhead »

sunshinesnacks wrote: post #53
thenerdhead wrote: post #39

I believe Science would benefit from a different approach to reporting, as Derek’s analysis over the past four years has been consistently lacking. A responsible science reporter should present the full body of evidence rather than drawing conclusions from a single study. Currently, a 900-person study is exploring Paxlovid’s potential for three clusters of Long COVID patients using a novel ultra-sensitive single-mole…

In the Pipeline is an “editorially independent blog,” [1] so I’m not sure that it’s fair to criticize Science or Derek Lowe for the “reporting.” I’m a big fan of Derek’s blog. And I think his comments about long COVID at the end of the post are enough to convince me to ask for Paxlovid if/when I get COVID again (I’ve taken Paxlovid before). [1] https://www.science.org/blogs/pipeline

I am criticizing two things.

1. Science magazine's association with his recurring "editorially independent blog". I've been a subscriber for many years and have never enjoyed it personally.

2. His opinion on this topic in general. The drug lived up to the hype even beating some international antivirals on efficacy terms.

Today's science is a bit further ahead still. For example, Pfizer will publish acute 10d data soon? which already has preliminary data showing faster symptom resolution and less rebound.

NIH/Yale/Karolinska will publish their 25d/15d/15d Long COVID Paxlovid studies to see what phenotypes may benefit from extended durations.

And next gen Paxlovid is already on an accelerated approval path and showed great results at IDWeek. https://clinicaltrials.gov/study/NCT06679140#study-plan

It is odd to me because he even wrote a piece about the next gen Paxlovid? Why didn't he reference it! It's in phase 3... https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/next-paxlovid

Re: Paxlovid: You'd have expected more

#63

Post by dahdum »

BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #41
dahdum wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It worked extremely fast for me, I took it within 16 hours of symptoms that were increasing rapidly. Within 6-8 hours I started feeling much better, instead just dealing with the Paxlovid side effects. I don’t think my body fought off Covid that fast. Anecdotal of course, but I’d take it again in a heartbeat. I did get a rebound infection the next week but I couldn’t feel it, just tested positive for a couple days.

> I took it within 16 hours of symptoms that were increasing rapidly. Within 6-8 hours I started feeling much better So about 24 hours? I took nothing when I got COVID, and the major fever and body/head aches only lasted about that long. One day I started feeling absolutely awful, and I woke up the next day feeling substantially better but unable to smell anything but smoke for the next week. It is possible that the…

It was dramatic and started just a few hours after the first dose. I was worsening all morning and by mid afternoon a reversal, coinciding with the Paxlovid side effects. It wasn’t an overnight thing where rest was a factor, I was awake and bedridden. So I’m pretty convinced, enough to drop $1,500 retail if need be in the future for it.

Re: Paxlovid: You'd have expected more

#64

Post by cameldrv »

I will say for me when I took it, I could barely get out of bed. I slept 17 hours that day. It was maximum effort just to go downstairs to the kitchen and get food out of the refrigerator.

Anyhow I got the first dose at about 6pm and went to sleep, and when I woke up I felt pretty good and went down to my office to start catching up on my email. It was an amazing turnaround.

Re: Paxlovid: You'd have expected more

#65

Post by cameldrv »

talkingtab wrote: post #22

My experience was odd. And this is just a description with no science. I was vaccinated, got COVID. At no point were my symptoms serious. Because of age and past heart issues I was given paxlovid. Two weeks after the paxlovid (or something like that) I became sick again, more seriously. With COVID. The symptoms I experienced were much worse but not life threatening and I recovered fully. However, it was odd that the…

There was a study out about a year ago that showed that you were pretty likely to rebound if you took it on the first day of symptoms, and very unlikely (it was something like 0/30 people) to rebound if you waited until the third day.

Re: Paxlovid: You'd have expected more

#66

Post by jerlam »

thenerdhead wrote: post #55
talkingtab wrote: post #22

My experience was odd. And this is just a description with no science. I was vaccinated, got COVID. At no point were my symptoms serious. Because of age and past heart issues I was given paxlovid. Two weeks after the paxlovid (or something like that) I became sick again, more seriously. With COVID. The symptoms I experienced were much worse but not life threatening and I recovered fully. However, it was odd that the…

there are a number of computational/modeling studies suggesting paxlovid needs to be given for at least 7+ days to slow the viral load and prevent rebound. Pfizer did a preliminary study(the FDA asked them) and quietly published their results on the topic. their data implies a second treatment might shorten the overall duration of the infection consistent with the studies i allude to above. but you probably haven't h…

The Paxlovid dosing guidelines probably need to be changed, but given the current climate and cost it's unlikely to ever happen.

Similarly, the initial two-shot vaccine guidelines probably needed more time in between the doses for more effectiveness, but that's what was tested so that's the official recommendation.

Re: Paxlovid: You'd have expected more

#67

Post by lostdog »

refurb wrote: post #59
gp wrote: post #30

I took Paxlovid twice. Horrible bitter taste, but kept the symptoms at bay. No long covid or persisting brain fog unlike some of my friends. Tested negative by the end of the treatment. My fiancé didn't catch it from my while I isolated. Derek doesn't have to take Paxlovid next time, but I will.

How doy ou know it kept your symptoms at bay? Plenty of people don't get long Covid, why were you sure you'd get it if you didn't take paxlovid? Same with brain fog?

Took paxlovid also. The symptoms go away really really suddenly and fast.

Sure, you need to run a study to be absolutely certain, but it just takes one experience to notice the effect.

Re: Paxlovid: You'd have expected more

#68

Post by terribleperson »

gwervc wrote: post #37
talkingtab wrote: post #22

My experience was odd. And this is just a description with no science. I was vaccinated, got COVID. At no point were my symptoms serious. Because of age and past heart issues I was given paxlovid. Two weeks after the paxlovid (or something like that) I became sick again, more seriously. With COVID. The symptoms I experienced were much worse but not life threatening and I recovered fully. However, it was odd that the…

> I was vaccinated, got COVID How is this possible?

Vaccines aren't total protection. Notably, you can get chicken pox as a child despite having been vaccinated for it, it simply reduces the severity.

Re: Paxlovid: You'd have expected more

#69

Post by mort96 »

ulfw wrote: post #50
BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That indicates that paxlovid actually works It had no measurable effect in the measured group. You can't say that it works based on that. If it had a measurable effect in that group, you would expect to see improvement in the treatment group between the two scenarios. If (65-69 no treatment) == (70-74 no treatment) and also (65-69 no treatment) == (70-74 treatment), then (70-74 treatment) == (70-74 no treatment) by…

[flagged]

I think they're okay? That expression makes perfect sense to me

If X == Y and also X == Z, then Y == Z

Re: Paxlovid: You'd have expected more

#70

Post by amenhotep »

cameldrv wrote: post #64

I will say for me when I took it, I could barely get out of bed. I slept 17 hours that day. It was maximum effort just to go downstairs to the kitchen and get food out of the refrigerator. Anyhow I got the first dose at about 6pm and went to sleep, and when I woke up I felt pretty good and went down to my office to start catching up on my email. It was an amazing turnaround.

This was more or less what happened to me with covid and I didn't take anything at all. It started as a cold, rapidly progressed to being so bad that I spent an entire day in bed, then rapidly subsided to "recovering from a bad cold but feeling mostly normal".

So I wouldn't put much confidence in your experience being down to the drug, personally.

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