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Gnome: Staring into the abyss

blogs.gnome.org

61–70 of 188 posts

Re: Gnome: Staring into the abyss

#61

GNOME is not necessary anymore. It was in the past, not today. We have Qt that really works, much much better, and with LGPL license. You can run stellarium, VLC or Marble in Mac or Windows without problems. If you try to use gimp or inkscape in mac it opens x11, copy and paste does not work(in inkscape it copies pixmaps instead of vectors!!), what a botched job. In windows you will have a lot of problems too. GTK su…

I'm not a fan of KDE, but I do like Qt. Qt seems to suffer from kitchen sink syndrome, but the core GUI API is well designed.

If someone did for Qt what XFCE/LXDE did for GTK+, I think it could catch on.

Re: Gnome: Staring into the abyss

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to bash Gnome. I have Debian testing (Wheezy), and I did try Gnome 3. It's steadily improving, though I still have issues with it. I try it every now and then - but I'm retreating to XFCE for the time being. Gnome feels un-unified. I guess this has always been the way under Linux, what with QT, GTK and other toolkits, but when one app is slightly at odds with the rest of the Desktop - it feels, odd. Exam…

> "Could there be some kind of CSSification of an app's controls?" That's exactly a feature that GTK 3 introduced: CSS theming.

How abstract is this though? Can I say take the main menu and do what I like with it? Can I grab the local task menu? Etc.

Rather can this be left completely to the Window Manager? I.e this is a menu, this is a tab. Now present it as you will.

Re: Gnome: Staring into the abyss

#63
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compiz is not without problems either: http://smspillaz.wordpress.com/2011/12/25/apology-2/ And Mozilla has left Thunderbird more or less. Lack of developer power seems to be a pattern within open source desktop projects.

Yes, knew about compiz, that's why it's a shame that Canonical chose this direction instead of putting more developer efforts into the gnome stuff.

I think it's the other way around--it's a shame Gnome chose to built yet-another-window-manager instead of building upon the solid and tested Compiz. Very NIH-y of them.

(Though Compiz most certainly has been on a measurable decline since the Natty days. The same laptop ran Natty without a hiccup, but it runs Gnome Classic on Precise with at least one Compiz crash every few hours. Not to mention the many bugs introduced into plugins since Natty--window previews and wobbly windows, I'm looking at you.)

Re: Gnome: Staring into the abyss

#64
post #55
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> GTK support for OpenGL, OpenCL was terrible, having to low code everything, while in Qt works as well as with cocoa. OpenGL support sucks in GTK and QT equally. Especially if you want a more recent version of GL. OpenCL does not depend on your widget toolkit in any way. > Let GTK die and improve(or fork) Qt. Qt is not really as great as you seem to suggest. It's a bloated "batteries included" framework that has eve…

Probably worth adding that Qt being C++ is itself a problem - as it makes it inaccessible to the majority of programmers, due to the lack of ABI compatibility with C++ and any other languages. Gtk+ on the other hand, is almost universally accessible, because any language worth using can bind C APIs. Of course, the downside here is that all the Gtk+ bindings to other languages are based on the Gtk+2 API. Gtk+3 hasn't…

> Probably worth adding that Qt being C++ is itself a problem

Yep. C++ is what I call a "dead end" language. If you write your code in C++, it will be only usable from C++. If you want to use it from Python, Ruby or whatever, you'll need a C shim in between. If it were written in C, you could use ctypes and other similar means to do FFI quickly.

Unfortunately, most languages other than C are more or less a dead end.

Re: Gnome: Staring into the abyss

#65
post #35

This would have worried me back when Unity was crap a year or so ago. Now Unity is actually good, it doesn't matter if Gnome dies a slow death; we'll still have multiple good alternatives that are still being enhanced.

Unity is still crap. It might be suitable for a tablet or a phone, but it'll never fly on the desktop, for any but a tiny subset of users. In case you haven't noticed, most people hate it, and are delaying upgrades, installing Gnome or switching to Mint in droves. One important function of the Start menu is discoverability of apps. If I want to see what junk I have installed, I can look through the menus to see what…

> Unity is still crap. It might be suitable for a tablet or a phone, but it'll never fly on the desktop, for any but a tiny subset of users. In case you haven't noticed, most people hate it, and are delaying upgrades, installing Gnome or switching to Mint in droves.

It works well on my laptop. Most people don't hate it. Those who tried earlier versions of it and hated it then (myself included) are pleasantly surprised when they give it another look.

> One important function of the Start menu is discoverability of apps. If I want to see what junk I have installed, I can look through the menus to see what I have. With Unity you have to bring up the whatever and try typing search terms. If you don't know what you're searching for, it can be difficult -- and lots of times, you don't know the name of the application, because they have clever branded marketing names (Evolution, Firefox, GIMP, Inkscape, Shotwell, Chromium, etc.) which don't have their primary function ("image," "photo," "web," "email") as a substring.

This is hideously out of date. If I hit the windows key and type "image", then "gimp" and "inkscape" are in the list of choices. If I type "photo" I get "shotwell", "gimp" and "cheese". If I type "web", I get "firefox", "opera" and "chrome. "email" gives me "thunderbird".

> Also, there are switching costs. The Unity interface is so foreign, I'd need several days -- possibly weeks -- to get as proficient with Unity as I am with Windows, Gnome 2 or Cinnamon. That's definitely a cost in time and frustration, and the benefits aren't clear.

This is an argument against "change", not an argument against "unity".

> Some features -- like the Mac-like "there's only one instance of each application" -- seem designed to cater to n00bs who need hand-holding because they don't understand the concept of multiple application instances, or the difference between launching an application and switching to an instance of that application. I want multiple instances of certain applications -- terminals particularly -- and it's a major pain point with Unity. So not only do I have reduced productivity during the transition period, it seems like Unity is actually going to decrease my productivity once I do learn it, due to lack or hiding of core features.

It takes hardly any time to get used to this change. Personally, my web browser, email client, terminal and text editor all support tabs, so I us ually only have one window per app anyway.

> Add to that the fact that Unity would crash regularly within the first hour of use when 11.10, the first Unity-only version of Ubuntu, was released.

I'm not interested in older versions of Unity. I already said they were crap.

> I gave it a fair shot on two or three different occasions -- I think once when it was still called Ubuntu Netbook Remix, again when the beta was released, and finally with the official release of 11.10. (And a few incidental times when I've booted the Ubuntu CD for various reasons.)

> In each case, within an hour of use I've concluded that Unity is a nightmare.

So you're qualified to state that Unity was a nightmare. Not that Unity is a nightmare.

Re: Gnome: Staring into the abyss

#66
post #25

This is really sad if it's true. I'm probably in the minority, but I think GNOME 3 (even without extensions) is the best Linux desktop at the moment. It does seem strange when you look at it at first, but once you use it for a week or so and use anything different (even GNOME 2 which I'd used for years), you feel stifled in a way. It's hard to put into words, it just feels like it's out of your way. Anecdote: I work…

[deleted]

Re: Gnome: Staring into the abyss

#68
post #45
post #25

This is really sad if it's true. I'm probably in the minority, but I think GNOME 3 (even without extensions) is the best Linux desktop at the moment. It does seem strange when you look at it at first, but once you use it for a week or so and use anything different (even GNOME 2 which I'd used for years), you feel stifled in a way. It's hard to put into words, it just feels like it's out of your way. Anecdote: I work…

I'm curious - did you set up "full" Gnome 3 with Gnome Shell, or is it the default Ubuntu install (with Unity)? If the full thing, what made you pick that over Unity? I "just" did a default install with the expectation that Unity would drive me crazy and that I'd end up replacing everything, but in the end I found it very suitable for how I work (browser + terminal with tons of tabs maximized; leaving one workspace f…

I usually do an "apt-get install gnome" on top of the default Ubuntu desktop. I used to run GNOME shell builds even before it was generally available and got to love it. I'm sure that given time I'd grow to not mind Unity, but for me GNOME feels designed as a more coherent whole than Unity. The vanishing top menu on Unity also sucks, IMO.

Re: Gnome: Staring into the abyss

#69
post #61

GNOME is not necessary anymore. It was in the past, not today. We have Qt that really works, much much better, and with LGPL license. You can run stellarium, VLC or Marble in Mac or Windows without problems. If you try to use gimp or inkscape in mac it opens x11, copy and paste does not work(in inkscape it copies pixmaps instead of vectors!!), what a botched job. In windows you will have a lot of problems too. GTK su…

I'm not a fan of KDE, but I do like Qt. Qt seems to suffer from kitchen sink syndrome, but the core GUI API is well designed. If someone did for Qt what XFCE/LXDE did for GTK+, I think it could catch on.

RazorQt is a lightweight Qt desktop environment

Re: Gnome: Staring into the abyss

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to bash Gnome. I have Debian testing (Wheezy), and I did try Gnome 3. It's steadily improving, though I still have issues with it. I try it every now and then - but I'm retreating to XFCE for the time being. Gnome feels un-unified. I guess this has always been the way under Linux, what with QT, GTK and other toolkits, but when one app is slightly at odds with the rest of the Desktop - it feels, odd. Exam…

> "Could there be some kind of CSSification of an app's controls?" That's exactly a feature that GTK 3 introduced: CSS theming.

All great, except a large portion of apps are still Gtk2 based, which means any potential theme developer needs to make his theme at least somewhat compatible with Gtk2 so there's a consistent desktop.

What should have been done, is the CSS in Gtk3 should've been designed with backward compatibility in mind, and the tooling to automate the creation of a Gtk2 theme based on a Gtk3 stylesheet.

As it is, they can't even move from 3.0 to 3.2 without breaking themes. I've no idea what the situation was for 3.4 or later, but I imagine much of the same.

Also, theming is missing a usable distribution and installation model. Currently, users are expected to simply extract an archive into a specific directory and follow any instructions that come with the theme - some include shell scripts. This is hardly "user friendly," like they claim they're attempting to make Gnome.

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