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I don't like Docker or Podman

blog.liw.fi

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Re: I don't like Docker or Podman

#61

Post by rad_gruchalski »

p_ing wrote: post #22
jasonpeacock wrote: post #9

1. I got hurt by Docker. 2. I don't want to learn Docker. 3. I got hurt by Docker more. 4. I don't trust DockerHub. 5. Podman is just like Docker. 6. I prefer VMs because I understand them, even though I know they are slower. 7. Don't try to explain Docker to me. A rant, nothing to see here, move along.

If your VM is slower, why are you emulating?! There is an 8... 8. Docker doesn't provide complete separation And a 9... 9. Just use PaaS

In author’s defence, I think you didn’t understand:

> If your VM is slower, why are you emulating?!

Which I think refers to this part of the article:

> They’re slower to set up, and start up a little slower too

Re: I don't like Docker or Podman

#62

Post by oulipo »

Uehreka wrote: post #37

So here's the thing: Docker is the best way we have to document how to set up a project/application in a way that can be repeated on arbitrary computers. The alternative was "have a README where you list all of the things you need to do/install in order to get this project running". That failed. Miserably. Developers always assumed things like "well naturally, if you're playing in the XYZ space, you've already got me…

In theory, Nix should be slightly better, but it has too many rough edged for now

Re: I don't like Docker or Podman

#63

Post by unsnap_biceps »

Pooge wrote: post #52
its-summertime wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not author but `cmd containers` does nothing, `cmd images` does `cmd image ls`, `cmd rm` does `cmd container rm`, `cmd ls` does nothing, its of course `cmd ps`, `cmd rmi`, no `cmd lsi`, no easy way to extract the resultant hash from a `cmd build`, can use a tag I suppose

Thank you for the examples. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I've never used those commands... I'd rather write `docker container ls` than an obscure short-hand alias.

Funny enough, ls is short for list :)

Re: I don't like Docker or Podman

#64

Post by coconut08 »

p_ing wrote: post #39
coconut08 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you have access to docker on both windows and macos

Under virtualization (or emulation if amd64 on arm64). May as well spin up that VM.

I'm not sure what your point is. virtualized or not you can run docker on any mainstream operating system using any mainstream hardware and get near native performance.

Re: I don't like Docker or Podman

#65

Post by unsnap_biceps »

dgreensp wrote: post #50

I had to use Docker at a job or two, I think around 2018. I hated it. One class of issue: It made interacting with the file system slower, sometimes by orders of magnitude. Stuff like watching files, or statting a large number files, didn’t have the same performance characteristics. So you have a situation where you (probably) already have too many components that are too complicated or poorly understood to install t…

> It made interacting with the file system slower, sometimes by orders of magnitude. Stuff like watching files, or statting a large number files, didn’t have the same performance characteristics.

Just as a FYI, This is only an issue running on Windows or Mac. They setup a vm behind the scenes to run docker on and the vm doesn't have direct access to the filesystem. On linux, it's just namespaces and it's native performance.

Re: I don't like Docker or Podman

#66

Post by chasil »

jasonpeacock wrote: post #9

1. I got hurt by Docker. 2. I don't want to learn Docker. 3. I got hurt by Docker more. 4. I don't trust DockerHub. 5. Podman is just like Docker. 6. I prefer VMs because I understand them, even though I know they are slower. 7. Don't try to explain Docker to me. A rant, nothing to see here, move along.

I actually use nspawn for a few things.

Why would I want to transition to Docker or Podman?

Edit: "I’ve used systemd-nspawn fairly extensively to run things in containers. It’s a much simpler container system than Docker, and I do not find it objectionable."

Re: I don't like Docker or Podman

#67

Post by layer8 »

samcat116 wrote: post #12

Posts where the author proclaims they don't even want to try and understand why something is the way it is just lose all credibility to me.

The author self-reportedly has been using Linux for decades. After having taken the time to understand why something is the way it is for a hundred things or more, you eventually lose interest in doing so when the thing in question is a shitty experience, because knowing why doesn’t change its shittiness (pardon my French).

Re: I don't like Docker or Podman

#68

Post by thesuavefactor »

Uehreka wrote: post #37

So here's the thing: Docker is the best way we have to document how to set up a project/application in a way that can be repeated on arbitrary computers. The alternative was "have a README where you list all of the things you need to do/install in order to get this project running". That failed. Miserably. Developers always assumed things like "well naturally, if you're playing in the XYZ space, you've already got me…

I think there is a point to the authors remark on user-friendlyness.

It should be possible to improve the containerization experience by providing a better UI and maybe even a different syntax for docker files.

Re: I don't like Docker or Podman

#69

Post by layer8 »

thedougd wrote: post #20
mkoubaa wrote: post #4

The most evil pattern is when application developers force users to install Docker to use their applications.

Forcing a software development dependency manager (e.g. pip, npm, etc) is even worse.

Both are bad, compared to Linux distro packaging.

Re: I don't like Docker or Podman

#70

Post by manosyja »

Vampiero wrote: post #5

Cool story but at least try to give some argumentation when you say stuff like: >The design of the language in Dockerfile is ad hoc in a bad way. It’s difficult to understand, for me, and easy to make mistakes. Because that reads like a skill issue to me

> skill issue

liw is Lars Wirzenius, so I assume we can rule that out.

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