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Chimera Linux works toward a simplified desktop

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Re: Chimera Linux works toward a simplified desktop

#61
post #7

[flagged]

> Surely, 2025 will be the year of the Linux desktop! I don't know if that joke was more funny in the late nineties when Linux was basically nowhere (I was already using Desktop Linux back then though) or if it's more funny today, when Linux powers the entire real world. I mean: Linux powers 500 of the Top 500 supercomputers, billions (if not tens of billions) of devices, rockets (SpaceX uses Linux extensively), serv…

It is a reoccurring joke, aka a meme (before internet memes were internet memes). If you liked it, it builds on repetition and nostalgia. If you disliked it, you won't like when repeated. On top of that, whether you liked it or not it may get boring.

Nowadays, it is out of date. Reality surpassed it: 99,9%+ of all smartphones is powered by either Linux or Unix (macOS). Are these desktops, with a pointer device? No. But they are GUI clients with touch UI. The Windows version? Too little, too late.

Same counts for Linux desktop: too little, too late. If it ever wants to overtake Windows or macOS it has to be substantially better. This is why some FOSS people dislike efforts like Cygwin, SFU, and successors (such as WSL). It allows Windows to use unique utilities which were tailored for FOSS OSes.

Re: Chimera Linux works toward a simplified desktop

#62
> Chimera supports many different configurations, leaving the user free to carve up their disk as they please — but does not support having /usr on a separate partition.

On systems with both a hard drive and ssd (since on most distros /(s)bin and /lib* are sym links into /usr, most binaries are ultimately in /usr), my recent preference is to have the hard drive as / and ssd as /usr (then sym link or bind mount there as needed for things that could use the speed, like Steam). Am I the only one who thinks this way or am I way off?

Re: Chimera Linux works toward a simplified desktop

#63
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Simplicity in implementation is not necessarily the same as simplicity in usability. Both are desirable, but if there's a trade-off between the two, then I reckon it's quite justifiable to prioritise the former.

Try installing OpenBSD then. Even though the installer runs in text mode, it holds your hand thru a standard setup, all the way to a graphical login. The basic X11 desktop is a part of the base system (as opposed to packages/ports). The installer also supports a bunch of advanced features, like scripting an automated install. OpenBSD is also some of the cleanest and simplest code I've ever read.

Maybe it seems a stupid question, but it's an honest one: why openbsd rather than freebsd?

I tried freebsd when Debian integrated systemd. Being neither savvy or intelligent, I had trouble with the ports system and installations were taking hours for small applications. I gave up.

I've always had a nagging desire to try again, but poor health has discouraged me from those kinds of learning curves. I recently left Debian again and use Void, with Opensuse on a separate drive for purposes of maintaining some competency and familiarity with systemd (just in case...).

Anyway, I'd appreciate your input on the various BSDs. As I understand, recent funding suggests it may be growing and will remain viable for a long time, which was, however relevant or not, a concern for me.

Edit: I might also mention that I gave serious consideration to Chimera before settling on Void, for similar reasons of learning curves. Of all distros, I had determined it would either be Void or Chimera and nothing else - or BSD.

Re: Chimera Linux works toward a simplified desktop

#64
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they mean simple in the sense of minimized complexity, rather than dumbed down.

The DEs it uses are GNOME and KDE, which are as far from "simple" in that sense as one can get on Linux-based systems: the two largest (and perhaps most widely criticized for being buggy and bloated) DEs. While the use of uncommon (non-GNU) userland sounds like a stream of unusual issues to debug, adding up to a strange combination. Though probably not counting the DEs as an important part of the system (and maybe th…

> one may argue that the non-GNU userland is simpler in a sense.

This seems to be the main argument of the article. Along with some stuff about systemD.

> In service of that goal, the project is based on BSD tools. Chimera's frequently asked questions page explains that unlike other projects that use those tools for licensing reasons, project picked BSD tools for their smaller code size and reduced complexity.

> But then again, it is presented here as a simplified desktop, while GNOME-based and KDE-based systems are on the images it provides.

Yeah, when I read the title here, I thought it would be about a simplified desktop environment. But they seem to just be using the standard stuff. So, I don’t think this is what they meant to say.

Re: Chimera Linux works toward a simplified desktop

#65
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very good but mice are still undeniably better. Even Apple sell mice.

For gaming, absolutely. But macOS and Apple devices aren't tailored towards that, and their mice are oddballs anyway: one button, and heavily tailored towards gestures. They're a mouse and touchpad in one. I quit using it when I got RSI. Now I use a vertical mouse (by Logitech). Now that is one of a kind (but it does not do gestures well).

Not just for gaming. Mice are better for everything.

> Now I use a vertical mouse (by Logitech).

Ugh I tried that when I had RSI. Absolutely awful. The fundamental flaw is that you click sideways which always moves the pointer a little unless you strain to avoid it, which kind of defeats the point.

Get a better chair and desk. That solved the RSI for me - no weird ergonomic input devices made any difference.

Re: Chimera Linux works toward a simplified desktop

#66
post #63
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try installing OpenBSD then. Even though the installer runs in text mode, it holds your hand thru a standard setup, all the way to a graphical login. The basic X11 desktop is a part of the base system (as opposed to packages/ports). The installer also supports a bunch of advanced features, like scripting an automated install. OpenBSD is also some of the cleanest and simplest code I've ever read.

Maybe it seems a stupid question, but it's an honest one: why openbsd rather than freebsd? I tried freebsd when Debian integrated systemd. Being neither savvy or intelligent, I had trouble with the ports system and installations were taking hours for small applications. I gave up. I've always had a nagging desire to try again, but poor health has discouraged me from those kinds of learning curves. I recently left Deb…

> I recently left Debian again and use Void, with Opensuse on a separate drive [...], I gave serious consideration to Chimera before settling on Void [...]

Have you tried to write down your goals/expectations? It seems like you're throwing distros at the wall to just see what sticks. I don't care for apt vs xbps or systemd vs openrc. My own goals are simple:

- I want a "UNIX workstation", overall decent for software development, need to run complex proprietary software (Logic, Compressor, Photoshop...), interface with niche hardware, develop for iOS, and occasionally play games: macOS

- I want to play a couple of games that won't run on Mac/Linux/BSD: Windows

- I want a simple system that I can understand and actually enjoy using: OpenBSD, Alpine

> purposes of maintaining some competency and familiarity with systemd

You can also just use a VM or a homelab box. No need to care for your personal device, as long as it fulfils your stated goals.

> why openbsd rather than freebsd?

I think OpenBSD is to FreeBSD what FreeBSD is to Linux, and then some more. I'd say these are its most distinguishing features (compared to almost every other OS):

- User-friendly - assuming you have some experience with the command line, can follow prompts, read documentation, etc.

- Excellent documentation, check out the FAQ: https://www.openbsd.org/faq/>; manpages: https://man.openbsd.org>; etc. Even compared even to the FreeBSD handbook, which (while a step up from most Linux distros) isn't quite on the same level.

- Secure by default: it is the upstream project for OpenSSH, LibreSSL, PF (notably forked into macOS and FreeBSD), and some others; also: privilege separation, W^X memory, (K)ASLR, doas, signify, pledge, unveil, kernel/libc random relinking, syscall origin verification, etc. Best part, you get all of that for free and you don't even notice. There's no "hardening guide".

- Truly self-hosting - the base system has everything you'd require to comfortably develop the base system, including X11, clang, mg (an Emacs clone - if you're not a vi fan), tmux, etc. You will probably install packages anyway, to get your preferred tools, but the base system will still be there.

- Innovative, not just technologically but culturally: cvsweb was the first of its kind - the source code, including all commits, could be anonymously browsed via the web, in (IIRC) 1996; most contemporary projects would just occasionally throw tarballs over the fence.

- Simplicity. It is not just the manpages or the source code; OpenBSD meticulously rips out or refuses to accept complex systems (sudo, gpg, seccomp) and instead introduces simpler interfaces (doas, signify, pledge)

I wish I could live in a world where this is all I need, but unfortunately, OpenBSD brands itself as a "research OS", and doesn't provide any accommodations such as binary compatibility between releases, Linux syscall emulation (which FreeBSD does), and so on. Even vmd(8) is a recent addition.

Re: Chimera Linux works toward a simplified desktop

#67
post #63
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try installing OpenBSD then. Even though the installer runs in text mode, it holds your hand thru a standard setup, all the way to a graphical login. The basic X11 desktop is a part of the base system (as opposed to packages/ports). The installer also supports a bunch of advanced features, like scripting an automated install. OpenBSD is also some of the cleanest and simplest code I've ever read.

Maybe it seems a stupid question, but it's an honest one: why openbsd rather than freebsd? I tried freebsd when Debian integrated systemd. Being neither savvy or intelligent, I had trouble with the ports system and installations were taking hours for small applications. I gave up. I've always had a nagging desire to try again, but poor health has discouraged me from those kinds of learning curves. I recently left Deb…

You don't have to use ports, FreeBSD has supported pre-compiled binary packages since 2014.

https://klarasystems.com/articles/a-quick-look-at-the-histor...

Re: Chimera Linux works toward a simplified desktop

#68
post #37
post #36

Desktops shouldn't be simple. They should work reliably and predictably like every good procduct. Everyone wants something simple until they want to do something that's not supported because it's not a simple use case. So unless you are a very simple person who always only does very simple things and lead a uniquely simple life (i envy you), a simple desktop is not for you.

>They should work reliably and predictably like every good procduct. So you're saying they should be simple? >unless you are a very simple person who always only does very simple things and lead a uniquely simple life Considering the massive popularity of MacOS and iOS which all mandate the same reliable and predictable user experience on every Apple device, most people are "very simple" persons who "do very simple t…

Neither iOS nor macOS especially are even preferred by the majority users so this is a bizarre argument to make.

If anything, their biggest criticism is that they're not capable enough for many productivity workflows.

Re: Chimera Linux works toward a simplified desktop

#69
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven't you heard that the terminal is the most simple and efficient interface? Obviously everyone should just use terminals for their tasks /s

It is conceptually very simple and it pays to learn it.

Except for most ordinary use cases. I guarantee you that, if someone downloads a compressed file, they'll find it infinitely easier to right click and select the "Extract here" option than whipping out some tar command. The linux-brain has people convinced that the layman would prefer the latter if only they would listen.

Re: Chimera Linux works toward a simplified desktop

#70
I appreciate what the Chimera authors are trying to achieve, but I would never consider going back to a distro that doesn't support atomic upgrades and seamless rollbacks, ala NixOS, Guix, etc. Packaging issues and incompatibilities are inevitable and impossible to prevent. Giving users the peace of mind that their system can always be reverted to a known working state is priceless, and something all operating systems should have.

Making the system configuration declarative, reproducible builds, etc., would also be a bonus, but I wouldn't consider those hard requirements.

I realize snapshots are a feature of some filesystems, which partially addresses this, but I would rather have this feature at the OS level.

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