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Issues with color spaces and perceptual brightness

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61–67 of 67 posts

Re: Issues with color spaces and perceptual brightness

#61
post #48

Hmm, the red definitely looks more vivid to me, but I'm not sure I would say it's lighter . In an HSL-type colorspace I would say it has more S, but not more L.

This is actually a very good point that nobody else has commented on. The very definition of lightness is somewhat ambiguous. I would argue that vividness itself is a unique axis, separate from saturation.

But which axis you care about is very context specific.

Re: Issues with color spaces and perceptual brightness

#62
post #37

This is something photographers and filmmakers had to (and sometimes still have to) deal with when shooting on black-and-white film, surely? (Though maybe B&W film sometimes has noticeably different responses to light at different visible frequencies, which might happen to counter this, or to heighten it?) There’s a long history of using colour lens filters with B&W film.

Yeah, B/W film was definitely not all that accurate. It was a common practice to use weird makeup, lighting, colors, in order to create a B/W film image that looked correct (see chocolate used for blood).

So in those cases, filmmakers had to counteract the limitations of the b/w transformations in the actual sets.

Re: Issues with color spaces and perceptual brightness

#63

See Oklab colorspace for an attempt at fairer perceptual brightness: https://bottosson.github.io/posts/oklab/

Oklab is mentioned in the article as also being flawed in this sense.

I was looking out for a mention of Oklab and didn't see it while reading. If anyone else is wondering, you have to click on the [1] footnote to see it.

Re: Issues with color spaces and perceptual brightness

#64

So as a guy with protanomaly, the biggest shock for me when I got my colorlite glasses¹ was that the traffic signs with bright blue and dark red colors suddenly looked dark(er) blue with very bright red. I asked my (normal vision) friends how they experienced those traffic signs and it was the latter. The lenses corrected for that. It was actually quite shocking how much more sense most color choices in art and desig…

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Re: Issues with color spaces and perceptual brightness

#65
post #8

This is part of "tone mapping"[1] in high dynamic range rendering. The idea is that pixels are computed with a much larger range of values than screens can display. 16 bits per color per pixel, or even a floating point value. Then, to generate the displayed image, there's a final step where the pixel values are run through a perceptual transformation to map them into 8 bit RGB (or more, if the hardware is is availabl…

> Here's a clip from Cyberpunk 2077.[2]

This looks nothing like actual Cyberpunk 2077. It looks actually realistic - unlike the base game itself where, just like in about every other game since "Physically Based Rendering" became a thing, everything looks like it's made of painted plastic.

Per the video description, this version of C2077 is modded up to its eyeballs. I'm very interested in those mods now, because it's the first time I ever saw someone managed to get materials in a game look somewhat realistic.

Re: Issues with color spaces and perceptual brightness

#66
post #8

This is part of "tone mapping"[1] in high dynamic range rendering. The idea is that pixels are computed with a much larger range of values than screens can display. 16 bits per color per pixel, or even a floating point value. Then, to generate the displayed image, there's a final step where the pixel values are run through a perceptual transformation to map them into 8 bit RGB (or more, if the hardware is is availabl…

> Here's a clip from Cyberpunk 2077.[2] This looks nothing like actual Cyberpunk 2077. It looks actually realistic - unlike the base game itself where, just like in about every other game since "Physically Based Rendering" became a thing, everything looks like it's made of painted plastic. Per the video description, this version of C2077 is modded up to its eyeballs. I'm very interested in those mods now, because it'…

I'm amazed how much was accomplished by "modding".

Auto paint looks great. They probably have a clearcoat layer. Skin still looks bad, though. I suspect that Cyberpunk 2077 lacks a subsurface scattering layer in the content. Is that correct? If there's no info there, rendering mods can't improve on it. It's worth thinking about using some Midjourney type system to generate subsurface scattering layers for existing models and make skin look better.

I've used something called "Deep Bump", which uses machine learning to generate normals for flat images. It's great for brick and stone, OK for bark, poor for plants. That probably reflects the training set, and could be improved.

Re: Issues with color spaces and perceptual brightness

#67
post #18

I've always found these "perceptual vs absolute" things about human senses very interesting. Hearing has a few quirks too: - When we measure sound pressure, we measure it in log (so, every 3dB is a doubling in sound pressure), but our hearing perceives this as a linear scale. If you make a linear volume slide, the upper part will seem as if it barely does anything. - The lower the volume, the less perceivable upper a…

The way I learned this, at least, 6 dB is what corresponds to a doubling of amplitude, but human ears compress this so it's 10 dB that corresponds to a doubling of volume - this is how the "bel" was supposedly calibrated to begin with. But that wouldn't mean we hear volumes on a linear scale in terms of bels, but rather still logarithmically (perceived volume would just be compressed using the function x^(3/5), which looks closer to sqrt(x) rather than log(x)).
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