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Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

theguardian.com

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Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#61

Post by maxerickson »

geertj wrote: post #59
Angostura wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DEI means, thinking about your hiring practices and looking hard at yourself if the population of people you hire is out of proportion with the general population. DEI can be implemented badly, but that doesn’t mean that DEI is bad

> DEI can be implemented badly, but that doesn’t mean that DEI is bad I really doubt that DEI per your definition above can be implemented for a general benefit. Fundamentally you need to show that not hiring the best candidate is best. This is typically squared by saying that group dynamics and output improve with diverse viewpoints, which I actually agree with within limits (the limit being that if nobody agrees no…

I mean, you have the same problem. What does 'best' mean, and how do you accurately measure it?

Of course you will have an answer, but how various things are weighted when making a decision is pretty subjective.

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#62

Post by dqv »

slt2021 wrote: post #33
Angostura wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DEI means, thinking about your hiring practices and looking hard at yourself if the population of people you hire is out of proportion with the general population. DEI can be implemented badly, but that doesn’t mean that DEI is bad

> if the population of people you hire is out of proportion with the general population. why it should be in proportion? This argument is flawed as it ignores that not everyone in general population has the same abilities. You can look at the roster of any top performing NBA team and tell me if their players population represents general population. Companies and organizations want to hire the best for any given job,…

> Companies and organizations want to hire the best for any given job, and given this preference, there will always be discrepancy btw hired and general population.

This is an assumption, not a fact. Companies hire less-qualified candidates all the time through nepotism.

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#63

Post by inglor_cz »

sertraline wrote: post #48
inglor_cz wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was a gesture for preening on the social networks, and now that the winds have changed, they will be trying to buy attention and approval on social networks through something else. It is also a good indication that DEI doesn't really make money . If DEI was improving the bottom line measurably, as its proponents promise, capitalists would be loath to scrap it entirely. Possibly they would change the name of the pr…

This is what interested me for a long time. The media industry in particular demonstrates very well that DEI content is not only unprofitable; it is net negative to the companies that produce it. The state of the movie industry is such that we have movies that have positive journalist reviews and negative user reviews, yet nobody is watching these movies, and each movie production costs them hundreds of millions. Thi…

That is a really interesting question.

I understand why CEOs, boards etc. engage in virtue signaling: once you are rich enough, status becomes more important than extra money, and this is a cheap way how to buy status and get invited to the right parties, where you may even be allowed to recite your own land acknowledgment from a podium.

But investors mostly don't care about status, and quite a lot of investors likely come from countries where DEI was never popular to begin with (Saudi Arabia etc.) I would expect them to push against it.

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#65

Post by slt2021 »

maxerickson wrote: post #61
geertj wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> DEI can be implemented badly, but that doesn’t mean that DEI is bad I really doubt that DEI per your definition above can be implemented for a general benefit. Fundamentally you need to show that not hiring the best candidate is best. This is typically squared by saying that group dynamics and output improve with diverse viewpoints, which I actually agree with within limits (the limit being that if nobody agrees no…

I mean, you have the same problem. What does 'best' mean, and how do you accurately measure it? Of course you will have an answer, but how various things are weighted when making a decision is pretty subjective.

we can go from the other side. If you want to hire the best, you need to stop looking at skin-level shallow factors and stop hiring decisions based on skin/race/sexual identity/ethnicity.

Just fair competition and pick the best candidate you think will do the job best. If you see the population is unbalanced (too many males or whites for example) => you go to the root of the problem and address the underlying root cause, not try to cover up the discrepancy by reverse discrimination at the end of the hiring pipeline.

There are a lot of societal problems in America and under-represented minorities absolutely have it worse than the generally well-off white population. But this is the argument to go and fix the root cause: income inequality, education inequality, lack of jobs, housing, etc.

The moment America decides to improve poor people's lives, not just promote and hire rich people with the "right" diversity traits, is when the whole country will improve in terms of outcomes

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#66

Post by frowaway4anoday »

pavlov wrote: post #44
slt2021 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

enforced top-down from leaders and decision makers by the "commitment to diversity" and hiring of unqualified people based on diversity representation, not merit. the most recent example is Kamala Harris: she had the worst primary performance during 2020, but still was selected as VP by Biden and was nominated without primaries again in 2024. Her electoral results speak for DEI in general, when hiring decision is don…

We’re talking about corporations, not political parties. If this enforcement to hire unqualified people is happening, surely there’s lots of evidence? Internal emails and messages regularly get released as part of lawsuits. There must be lots of cases where middle managers at Apple are complaining that they’re being forced to hire an unqualified person because of a top-down edict, as you say.

Some of us like our jobs too much to risk leaking these things from resourceful companies that can ruin away our lives in an instant. Might be going too far to say “unqualified”, but I have already seen “less qualified” changed to “meets the minimum requirements” specifically changed to push through some hires. I am not taking a stance, the hired still worked great, but decisions were made, calls were exchanged, interview notes were modified, and I don't think you can defend this position honestly as of ~2020 Spring. There was a good 3 years where it was not about getting “the best”, but specifically for asking us to lower out bars to “get enough”, and letting HR take it from there.

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#67

Post by slt2021 »

dqv wrote: post #62
slt2021 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if the population of people you hire is out of proportion with the general population. why it should be in proportion? This argument is flawed as it ignores that not everyone in general population has the same abilities. You can look at the roster of any top performing NBA team and tell me if their players population represents general population. Companies and organizations want to hire the best for any given job,…

> Companies and organizations want to hire the best for any given job, and given this preference, there will always be discrepancy btw hired and general population. This is an assumption, not a fact. Companies hire less-qualified candidates all the time through nepotism.

I have a mixed opinion on this. There are cases when nepotism fires back via poor job performance and quickly self-corrects itself.

But there are cases when nepotism is a job requirement, as in being connected to a powerful network is job description. You can find it in investment banking, big law, VC, sales when people are hired because they know the right people and can get the right results through back-channels/established network.

You cannot make the same argument however in favor of hiring lesbians, unless being a lesbian is a job requirement

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#68

Post by geertj »

maxerickson wrote: post #61
geertj wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> DEI can be implemented badly, but that doesn’t mean that DEI is bad I really doubt that DEI per your definition above can be implemented for a general benefit. Fundamentally you need to show that not hiring the best candidate is best. This is typically squared by saying that group dynamics and output improve with diverse viewpoints, which I actually agree with within limits (the limit being that if nobody agrees no…

I mean, you have the same problem. What does 'best' mean, and how do you accurately measure it? Of course you will have an answer, but how various things are weighted when making a decision is pretty subjective.

Hiring will always have a subjective aspect to it, which is just the nature it. And I do agree that techniques like being conscious of bias and trying to interrupt it are useful.

But yes, I do have an answer, which is that excluding factors that do not relate at all to job responsibilities is strictly better than including those, even if the result is still subjective.

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#69

Post by piva00 »

geertj wrote: post #53
piva00 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you share all the sources linking DEI policies to the right-wing shift? Because to me it looks more like a scapegoat post-factum where right-wingers tied themselves to the idea of DEI to fan the flames rather than it being a causal point. It's just another selling point for the hatred-fueled base of right-wingers, not too different from "immigrants are taking your jobs" or "women in the workforce are the cause of…

GP has no obligation to do a literature search for you. This is a discussion site, not a scientific journal, so it is okay to have opinions based on other sources, such as anecdotes from personal life, first principles, or common sense/intuition. Speaking of which, I see the same anecdotes that DEI policies pushed people to the right.

It's absolutely okay if it's framed that way in their original comment, which it wasn't and deserves push back unless they can sustain their argument. If it started with "in my opinion", "in my view" instead of a baseless factual statement.

If not framed in that way then I will ask for sourcing the bullshit :)

> Speaking of which, I see the same anecdotes that DEI policies pushed people to the right.

Yeah, that's why it's called "reactionaries", I'm sad you live among those people though.

Re: Apple asks investors to block proposal to scrap diversity programmes

#70

Post by astura »

newsclues wrote: post #37
Angostura wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DEI means, thinking about your hiring practices and looking hard at yourself if the population of people you hire is out of proportion with the general population. DEI can be implemented badly, but that doesn’t mean that DEI is bad

Why isn’t DEI being used to hire men in female dominated industries?

It is.
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