Masks, Smoke, and Mirrors: The story of EgyptAir flight 804 • Hacker News Board

Re: Masks, Smoke, and Mirrors: The story of EgyptAir flight 804

#61

Post by wat10000 » Wed, Dec 25, 2024, 3:09 AM UTC

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #52

userbinator wrote: post #28

In all tests, the fire, propelled by the oxygen leak, produced a terrifying “blowtorch” effect, and the flames were literally white-hot. Sufficient concentrations of oxygen can cause even steel to burn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_lance There must be a reason they use pure oxygen, as regular compressed air, also breathable, would not have the same intense reactivity.

If you put a human in an environment with 20% of sea level pressure, and feed them 20% sea level pressure air, they will suffocate. If you were to somehow feed them 100% sea level pressure air through a perfectly sealed mask, they will be unable to exhale and/or get some kind of fatal side effects (burst lungs or air bubbles making it into the blood stream). So you have to feed the breathing gas at the surrounding pr…

Incidentally, it is possible to provide the breathing gas at somewhat over the ambient pressure. This can allow survival without cabin pressurization at altitudes above the point where even 100% oxygen wouldn’t be sufficient. But the pressures that can be used are well below what you’d need for normal air to be sufficient at a typical airliner cruising altitude.

Re: Masks, Smoke, and Mirrors: The story of EgyptAir flight 804

#62

Post by 23B1 » Wed, Dec 25, 2024, 3:20 AM UTC

mmooss wrote: post #14

23B1 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your answer is in fact the lazy one. The topics that are often beset with controversy and conspiracy are heavily technical. "You should do your own research" is fine when we're talking about the fall of Rome or aliens in space. It is dismissive and arrogant to say it when it comes to things like COVID or airline safety - areas where we must trust experts. Shrugging your shoulders at experts who lie about those sorts…

Regarding your point, I mostly agree but I think you can add your own research - not necessarily primary source research - as an input. > "You should do your own research" is fine when we're talking about the fall of Rome or aliens in space. It is dismissive and arrogant to say it when it comes to things like COVID or airline safety - areas where we must trust experts. On a tangent ... why are the fall of Rome or int…

The former are interesting topics to be sure, but have very little to do with with active engagement in modern society.

Re: Masks, Smoke, and Mirrors: The story of EgyptAir flight 804

#63

Post by wat10000 » Wed, Dec 25, 2024, 3:20 AM UTC

amelius wrote: post #31

With all the high speed trains in Europe, I'm wondering why we don't see more security around them. It seems a much easier target than airplanes.

This story is a good example of one major reason: trains are way more robust. Imagine a similar catastrophic fire in the cockpit of a high speed train. Worst case, you hit the emergency stop and then evacuate the train. The only person who would be at risk would be the train driver. Have that fire in an airplane and everyone on board dies.

This incident wasn't a terrorist attack, but the same idea applies there. The Lockerbie bomb, for example, was pretty small. Setting it off in a train might have killed some nearby people, but that’s all. But set it off in an airplane and you can kill hundreds.

Re: Masks, Smoke, and Mirrors: The story of EgyptAir flight 804

#64

Post by llamaimperative » Wed, Dec 25, 2024, 4:05 AM UTC

brnt wrote: post #58

ngneer wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a valid point. I stand corrected. "Hacks" is not an accurate term, and fails to account for the full circumstance. I was merely appalled at how willing EAAID were to jump to conclusions and twist facts towards a convenient narrative. France is a democracy, and that makes for an unfair comparison between the two agencies. I am sure that even the most intellectually honest individual will choose their own safe…

Such are the mechanics of fascist dictatorships. Individuals are in no way empowered to think or act in ways not supporting the Great Leader. You being unsafe is the method of control. Take care, America.

Yeah people dictator-sympathizers seem to think the problem with strongman asshole leaders is that they're meanie heads (something Real Patriots can look past!). But no, it's that they actually yield failure in a society's most basic functions and at every level.

Re: Masks, Smoke, and Mirrors: The story of EgyptAir flight 804

#65

Post by wk_end » Wed, Dec 25, 2024, 4:05 AM UTC

dmckeon wrote: post #6

Tragedy from a Swiss cheese failure - several small holes/failures all line up. The issue of halon extinguishers versus oxygen-powered combustion producing many toxins while failing to extinguish is interesting - good that: > Halon fire extinguishers are scheduled to be phased out of most commercial aircraft by the end of 2025.

In commercial aviation the vast majority of tragedies are Swiss cheese failures, at this point. The system has worked very hard to optimize out the possibility of any one individual failure leading to catastrophe. But the explosion of potential combinations - along with the extremely low odds of them ever occurring - makes preparing for one of them much less feasible.

Re: Masks, Smoke, and Mirrors: The story of EgyptAir flight 804

#66

Post by nico » Wed, Dec 25, 2024, 4:51 AM UTC

ngneer wrote: post #45

eddythompson80 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My takeaway is that the French investigators are pros and the Egyptians are hacks Describing them as "hacks" is weird. In most dictatorships, the concern is usually "What does the country's leadership want the official story to be" rather than "What actually happened". Take this quote from the article for example > "In my opinion, the problem with the report is that it appears to treat the findings of the Triple Co…

You make a valid point. I stand corrected. "Hacks" is not an accurate term, and fails to account for the full circumstance. I was merely appalled at how willing EAAID were to jump to conclusions and twist facts towards a convenient narrative. France is a democracy, and that makes for an unfair comparison between the two agencies. I am sure that even the most intellectually honest individual will choose their own safe…

> France is a democracy

And even there, sometimes people will get treated like terrorists for saying the wrong political thing

Like it’s been happening for the last year. Including some protests getting outright made illegal

And as you say, even people that care a lot about the truth, will choose something else to protect themselves or their loved ones

Re: Masks, Smoke, and Mirrors: The story of EgyptAir flight 804

#67

Post by ordu » Wed, Dec 25, 2024, 5:39 AM UTC

> if it was a coverup, then the EAAID gave away its own game by attaching the BEA’s comprehensive findings.

I'd say, that EAAID had written the report in a way to make the coveraup unmistakable. I mean, the reasoning is not just bad, it contradicts to itself in a way, that to my mind one couldn't achieve without a deliberation. So it is possible that EAAID was forced to support the hypothesis but resisted it in the only way it could.

Re: Masks, Smoke, and Mirrors: The story of EgyptAir flight 804

#68

Post by user_7832 » Wed, Dec 25, 2024, 6:44 AM UTC

amelius wrote: post #31

With all the high speed trains in Europe, I'm wondering why we don't see more security around them. It seems a much easier target than airplanes.

Another reason is, security checks are just one part of the whole process involved. A flight with 100 people dying because of a bomb may be more “glamorous” than 200 dead on a train to a terrorist organization.

Also: the actual number of such people/organizations, is, fortunately, extremely low in daily life.

Re: Masks, Smoke, and Mirrors: The story of EgyptAir flight 804

#69

Post by FridayoLeary » Wed, Dec 25, 2024, 7:17 AM UTC

wk_end wrote: post #65

dmckeon wrote: post #6

Tragedy from a Swiss cheese failure - several small holes/failures all line up. The issue of halon extinguishers versus oxygen-powered combustion producing many toxins while failing to extinguish is interesting - good that: > Halon fire extinguishers are scheduled to be phased out of most commercial aircraft by the end of 2025.

In commercial aviation the vast majority of tragedies are Swiss cheese failures, at this point. The system has worked very hard to optimize out the possibility of any one individual failure leading to catastrophe. But the explosion of potential combinations - along with the extremely low odds of them ever occurring - makes preparing for one of them much less feasible.

I'm surprised that a catastrophic runaway oxygen leak is possible on an aircraft in todays day and age. Aircraft design is dominated by strict safety regimes that take into account even far fetched scenarios. Putting one valve in the rubber hose sounds sub optimal. Gas station pumps, for example have a valve that closes if the hose gets torn away. (which does happen when people forget about the pump and drive off). From the article it sounds like a button closes the oxygen tank but a pilot sitting next to a flamethrower might not remember to press it. One obvious solution is that the oxygen tank should be activated only in an emergency instead of being on by default during the flight but i assume the current procedure exists for a reason.

Re: Masks, Smoke, and Mirrors: The story of EgyptAir flight 804

#70

Post by mmooss » Wed, Dec 25, 2024, 7:27 AM UTC

23B1 wrote: post #62

mmooss wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding your point, I mostly agree but I think you can add your own research - not necessarily primary source research - as an input. > "You should do your own research" is fine when we're talking about the fall of Rome or aliens in space. It is dismissive and arrogant to say it when it comes to things like COVID or airline safety - areas where we must trust experts. On a tangent ... why are the fall of Rome or int…

The former are interesting topics to be sure, but have very little to do with with active engagement in modern society.

Thanks for clarifying.

IMHO history and the fall of Rome in particular seem among the most valuable topics today!